The Biggest Problem with Wing Chun

[sanjuro_ronin]

as high as the level of BS in arts that don't have a competition eliment, like say wing chun, southern mantis etc?

im not saying there isn't secrecy and BS in these arts, but having a full contact enviroment cuts down on the level of BS, and where the BS is its pretty easy to spot, would you listen to a kyokushin instructor who never produced a fighter, or a grappling coach that never entered a team in a competition?

No, not that high, LOL
Kyokushin is still a "results oriented" MA, the problem is with the branches they focus solely on kyokushin competitions, some don't even hit to the face AT ALL in training.
Kyokushin, like many full contact MA, can be it's own worse enemy because it becomes narrow-minded.
Many Kyokushin guys saw that and branched out and we get SHIDOKAN, which is very good and Daidojuku which is great too, but the helmet is a bit disconcerning.

[Frost]

Isn't it interesting that WCK people will do anything, come up with any excuse, etc. to avoid training/sparring with good, proven fighters? What does that tell you?

"Secrecy" isn't an issue IMO. As soon as someone starts talking secrecy, you know it is bullsh1t.

Competitions won't get rid of this sort of nonsense -- you will still have people doing things like "this is for competition" and THIS is "THE secret stuff that we keep behind closed doors."

What exposes bullsh1t is good, solid athletic training (with very good people) because by doing that, by going through that process, you will come to see for yourself what is and what is not bullsh1t.

I've cited this before, and I think it really explains things well:

http://caneprevost.wordpress.com/200...ullsh1t-meter/ (replace bullsh1t with the correct spelling to get the link to work)



You think kyukushinkai is bereft of bullsh1t, do you?



It's not the competition that gets rid of bullsh1t -- it's already gone long before the competitors compete. The PROCESS of sound, athletic training is what eliminates it. It's not like boxing or BJJ or wrestling competitions ferret out the bullsh1t or the nonsense or what works or doesn't work -- the hundreds of hours of sound, athletic training, the core being sparring, has already pruned that tree.



I'm not saying just go and fight in MMA, I'm saying to go and train/spar with really good fighters -- and learn from them how to effectively train. If you think, for example, that you have good ground skills, you don't need to go to compete at NAGA or the Pan Ams, you can just go train at a good BJJ school and you'll see.

When people actually go train with good, proven fighters, the bullsh1t ends.

And what makes a good BJJ/MMA school? Competition, not all people need to compete but all students wishing to get better need to train at a school that competes or with a coach that has competed.

someone can think they are training athletically and soundly, and that they are teaching this to their students (they add boxing for example, they grapple, they spar MMA and so on) but if they and their students do not compete BS will still be there, the use of low percentage moves, bad escapes etc its competition that reinforces good basics and sound technique just sparring rolling with people worse than you does not do this.

Secrecy and BS is a major problem with TCMA, you may spot it a mile of but most do not (as witnessed by countless posts on this site) and where there is no open competition or a format to try out skills secrecy and BS factor will always be high

[Frost]

No, not that high, LOL
Kyokushin is still a "results oriented" MA, the problem is with the branches they focus solely on kyokushin competitions, some don't even hit to the face AT ALL in training.
Kyokushin, like many full contact MA, can be it's own worse enemy because it becomes narrow-minded.
Many Kyokushin guys saw that and branched out and we get SHIDOKAN, which is very good and Daidojuku which is great too, but the helmet is a bit disconcerning.

and thats my point, competition cuts down the BS and allows people to see through it to some extend, competing in MMA would be the best option, but if thats not realistic then some for of full contact rules that they will fight under is the next best option.

just going to an MMA gym and testing what you have learned is fine for an individual, but for a whole school or system its inefficent, you might waste years in a system before testing it out, far better to have some form of competition in place so new people coming into the art can see how good or bad schools are. and if thats not possible then find a teacher that has had sanctioned fights....or find another system that does endorse competing

[sanjuro_ronin]

MA systems LOSE more than they gain with the "closed door" and "secret" BS, history has shown us this.

[t_niehoff]

And what makes a good BJJ/MMA school? Competition, not all people need to compete but all students wishing to get better need to train at a school that competes or with a coach that has competed.

I see and understand your POV.

We can only know how good our training is from the results of that training (is it working, how well is it working, etc.). And - not to put words in your mouth - you seem to think that results in competition are the results that really matter. My view is that before we ever get to that stage, the results from our training -- our practice -- tells us. But to do so requires that we practice in a certain way (so that our training involves actually doing the target skill itself under the same conditions).

someone can think they are training athletically and soundly, and that they are teaching this to their students (they add boxing for example, they grapple, they spar MMA and so on) but if they and their students do not compete BS will still be there, the use of low percentage moves, bad escapes etc its competition that reinforces good basics and sound technique just sparring rolling with people worse than you does not do this.

Agreed. But what this stems from is not from a failure to compete but rather from not training with people much better than we are.

It's the same problem with going to compete with scrubs and leaving thinking you are good.

In both cases, whether you train (spar) or compete, it is by and through interaction with people much better than you are that you get better. This is just "you are only as good as your sparring partners." How do you know if they are much better than you? That's easy.

Secrecy and BS is a major problem with TCMA, you may spot it a mile of but most do not (as witnessed by countless posts on this site) and where there is no open competition or a format to try out skills secrecy and BS factor will always be high

The problem stems from being cloistered.

[m1k3]

T., I think what Frost is saying is that competition is the yardstick for picking your coach/school. Like you said training with people who are very good is what makes you better but as a noob how can you tell if his(the coach/school) is very good? Look at his and better yet the school's competition record.

Frost, if this isn't what you meant feel free to flame away.

[Frost]

T., I think what Frost is saying is that competition is the yardstick for picking your coach/school. Like you said training with people who are very good is what makes you better but as a noob how can you tell if his(the coach/school) is very good? Look at his and better yet the school's competition record.

Frost, if this isn't what you meant feel free to flame away.

nope nicely put and i don't flame much honest its not an individuals competition record but rather the schools, thats how a new person can best judge a school and that record only comes about from having a format that the school can compete in regularly.

i don't think T and i are that far apart in our thinking to be honest

[m1k3]

I didn't think you were that far apart either, but he seemed to be missing the point on why the school competing is so important.

[Frost]

I didn't think you were that far apart either, but he seemed to be missing this point.

true, i think it comes from all that argueing he does with the other wing chun guys, after a while you have trouble seeing the woods for the trees

[t_niehoff]

T., I think what Frost is saying is that competition is the yardstick for picking your coach/school. Like you said training with people who are very good is what makes you better but as a noob how can you tell if his(the coach/school) is very good? Look at his and better yet the school's competition record.

Frost, if this isn't what you meant feel free to flame away.

I understand that.

Look, it's the same with any sport. If you are a beginner at tennis or golf or swimming or surfing, do you need a seasoned competitive pro to learn from? Sure, that would be great. But you don't need it in the beginning.

What you do need -- if you are genuinely interested in getting better-- is to continually seek out people who are better than you to train with. Is competition a good yardstick for that? Sure, it can be.

[Frost]

I understand that.

Look, it's the same with any sport. If you are a beginner at tennis or golf or swimming or surfing, do you need a seasoned competitive pro to learn from? Sure, that would be great. But you don't need it in the beginning.

What you do need -- if you are genuinely interested in getting better-- is to continually seek out people who are better than you to train with. Is competition a good yardstick for that? Sure, it can be.

Fair enough but you need to learn from someone who knows what they are doing correct? in tennis and golf coaches are accreidted and sanctioned by governing bodies.... in a sport that does not have such a governing body or scheme how to you find a coach that you know knows what he is talking about?

[t_niehoff]

nope nicely put and i don't flame much honest its not an individuals competition record but rather the schools, thats how a new person can best judge a school and that record only comes about from having a format that the school can compete in regularly.

i don't think T and i are that far apart in our thinking to be honest

I don't think so either.

The trouble is when you start saying competition alone is the answer is that then you get the guys who compete in scrub events (the 70's full-contact karate theater people, for example) saying "see, we compete!" And, they're doing nonsense. So there is more to it than competition.

It's not just the competition, but WHO you compete with -- in other words, the skill of the people you compete against that matters.

Similarly, it is not just that you spar, but WHO you spar with that matters.

That aspect of the equation is critical IMO.

[Vajramusti]

...is the fact that, granted basically every martial art has its intercine squabbles - but this art seems to be the champion of such disputes.

((So what-it ain't really a functional family))



Let's take the Yip Man lineage for example. As great a martial artist as he probably was - he only taught people bits-and-pieces of the art, and most of the instruction in his school was left to whatever senior students were in attendance at any given point in time.

And we all know by now that behind-closed-doors he was said to have taught this to that person...the next guy maybe something else, a third guy got pieces the first two didn't get, and so on.

((Apparently true- so what?))



And from the point of view of the instructor who engaged in this kind of teaching - this was somehow seen as a way to "protect the rice bowl" - as the saying used to go. (Keep the students coming back to fill your rice bowl with more).

((So what- even monasteries have to have donations))

What a mess!

I wonder, what can be done in 2010 to fix this?

((Fix? Who is the fixer? There ain't any grandmaster!! There is much less wing chun probably than what there appears to be. So what? Most folks probably should do MMA in some form.
So what? Why call most stuff wing chun? Amusing though that a wing chun chat forum outdraws other forums and non wing chun folks end up in it!!Same as in many other areas of serious learning-get a good teacher- practice well-experiment and explore and turn off the tube!!))Joy Chaudhuri

[m1k3]

T., Frost and I agree with you. In hostile territory you shouldn't shoot your allies.

[t_niehoff]

Fair enough but you need to learn from someone who knows what they are doing correct? in tennis and golf coaches are accreidted and sanctioned by governing bodies.... in a sport that does not have such a governing body or scheme how to you find a coach that you know knows what he is talking about?

Learning something and getting better at it are two different things.

Lots of people learn all kinds of sports from dads, other kids, etc. Did you need an ex big-leaguer to teach you the fundamentals of baseball? Or, could your dad teach you?

To learn a skill we just need someone who knows that skill to show us. Than we get better through practicing that skill. What we need is LEVEL APPROPRIATE instruction/coaching. Your dad may be fine at the beginning (that level) but not good enough to help you further along. LEVEL APPROPRIATE is the key.

One of the problems in TCMA is that most of the people have a very low level of real skill (fighting skill) -- and that would be fine if, like the dad, they acknowledged this -- yet believe they have high level skills and understanding, and convince their cloistered followers to listen only to them. Can you learn golf from a bad golfer? Sure. But you won't become a good golfer following the advice of a bad golfer.

When that skill involves defeating another person, we develop that skill by practicing defeating other persons -- so we need to seek out better and better people to practice doing that against.

So, to get better, you have to continually seek out people better than ourselves (you are only as good as your sparring partners).