The Biggest Problem with Wing Chun

[t_niehoff]

T., Frost and I agree with you. In hostile territory you shouldn't shoot your allies.

I think we agree generally but are more explaining our slight differences of opinion.

[Lee Chiang Po]

...is the fact that, granted basically every martial art has its intercine squabbles - but this art seems to be the champion of such disputes.

And I believe it's the ultra secretive nature of the art historically - combined with giant egos...

that has made the art - as a whole - suffer.

Let's take the Yip Man lineage for example. As great a martial artist as he probably was - he only taught people bits-and-pieces of the art, and most of the instruction in his school was left to whatever senior students were in attendance at any given point in time.

And we all know by now that behind-closed-doors he was said to have taught this to that person...the next guy maybe something else, a third guy got pieces the first two didn't get, and so on.

And then everybody scrambled in some way or another to see what they had, what the other guy had, what they missed, what could they learn to surpass the guy standing next to them, and on, and on.

And from the point of view of the instructor who engaged in this kind of teaching - this was somehow seen as a way to "protect the rice bowl" - as the saying used to go. (Keep the students coming back to fill your rice bowl with more).

And very similar things have gone on, it would seem, in other wing chun lineages.

Secrecy + Giant egos = Problems.

What a mess!

I wonder, what can be done in 2010 to fix this?

Everyone seems to think cross training is the answer, but this has nothing to do with any of that. It has to do with the quality of teaching, not fighting skills. No matter how good or bad you might be, if you can not teach, you just can not teach. Ip Man was in that catagory. And btw, don't let that movie fool you, he was not that good. No one is or was.
Most people that would teach tend to start at different places in the training rather than at the extreme beginning. A person has to understand exactly what it is that he is doing to actually learn it. Moving about from one thing to the next, skipping over stuff, and not fully explaining something to a persons fullest understanding is why one person can have students that vary so greatly in their own teachings and skill levels. This is why schools of education use books, chapter by chapter. If it were left to the teacher alone, they would be all over the place in their mathmatical abilities or whatever they were trying to learn. This happens to a greater extent when a person opens a school or kwoon and takes on a lot of students. People come and they go. And on average they might have several older students teaching them. A new person comes in, and where does he get placed? Probably right into the mix, so you know he is going to miss something. Wing Chun is said to now be the most popular form of Kung Fu. True or not I have no idea. But I do know that the commercialization of Wing Chun is what has made it this way. Just look at the people on this forum. It is a Wing Chun forum, yet you will seldom find 2 people that can agree on anything Wing Chun. Not even the proper spelling of it. This is likely because people have to fill in the blanks with what they personally like or feel needs to be there, right or wrong.

[Ultimatewingchun]

I believe that having something along the lines of a "Wing Chun Fight League" would be a very good idea.

It could go a long way towards resolving the secrecy issue, as some have already pointed out on this thread - since the "super-duper secret techniques" from school (or lineage) X might turn out to be not so super-duper...

at which point nobody will care about their "secrets".

BUT...I only see that as a stepping stone towards bigger and better things. AN IMPORTANT STEPPING STONE - but just a stepping stone.

Entering comps that includes NON wing chun striking/kicking stylists should also be on the agenda...

and then mma-type comps against people who might also seek to take you to the ground and keep you there looking for a submission or a GnP.

Yes, that's a good formula imo to get rid of secrecy and weed out (by exposing) a lot of bull5hit wing chun schools and instructors.

But James hit on a good point concerning the ego thing. Getting a good thrashing (and perhaps more than once) can clearly be an ego reducer - and could therefore ultimately be a good thing for the person who learns from it.

But the old ways of having respect for your opponents, whether you win or lose - and especially if you win - seems to have been lost down through the decades, for the most part.

Imo, one of the biggest drawbacks concerning many mma people and mma comps today that really sucks is the GIANT EGO'S that seem to come out of them. And all the trash-talking. And it happens very often.

This kind of thing really needs to be held in check: regardless of what style, school, lineage, instructor, master, grandmaster, or whatever.

[m1k3]

Victor, there are a lot of egos at the very top levels of MMA but at least they can walk the walk as well as talk the talk. Also a lot of the trash talk is part of the show. Remember the fighter's job is to also to sell tickets.

I have trained as several MMA schools and have never run into the ego issue at any of the schools I have trained at.

[FongSung]

Secrets and Ego?
Here in SEA my sifu has always said there are no secrets it's all in the form it's up to me to use my own brain to work it out, practise, test and make it your own.
Practise practise pratise is the only secret. :-)

[chusauli]

Victor,

You have a great point - about secrecy. I'd like to bring something up related to this secrecy - and its a pseudo "Kung Fu Culture" which is anachronistic, and even cultish or sect-istic. Its rarely done in HK any more and in China, it was banned. Taiwan has little tolerance for it, too.

A lot of the old culture is dying out with the secrecy. And going overboard with the Jiang Hu or Kung Fu Life thing is something that is taken way too seriously. We live in the 21st century, not Qing Dynasty China.

We are not part of the secret underground Hung Mun to overthrow the hated Manchus...nor is it an us vs. them mentality in which we must save our secrets, due to interschool rivalry. This is largely portrayed in the pulp fictions of Chinese Book stalls, or in the Chinese Kung Fu theatre.

Here on this forum, we can shoot the breeze and can talk straightforward, with few titles and "exhalted Maha guru status claims".

We're here because we practice WCK and love it...but let's not let this go overboard. We're still decent people who work, serve the community, raise families, pay taxes, and have fun.

I hope my message here is clear.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Sounds Like a good message, Robert.

[anerlich]

Good post, Robert.

[FongSung]

Ali, Tyson, Haggler, Rocky ;-) all box differently and had the same tools but different mentality, body size and character but we still called it Boxing. Whats the big deal about Wing Chun with all this talk about secrets and whether is modified or pure etc. Even IP man allowed changes to be made to forms etc Masters WSL, TST & Chung all differnet sizes and character so their wing chun is different but suits them.

What's the problem... If it works for you OK. Some players are direct some are in-direct (Straight down the centre or flanking) WC has both methods, whats the issue if you focus prefer one or the other? How can Master Hawkins Chueng fight like Master W. Chung like but they had the same sifu ha ha. Hendrink has found his way and T has found his good for them, ha ha.

We all have our preferences and there for differences this is life is it not.

Maybe it's the common enemy "ego".

[WCFighter]

What sihing said:

"I agree, that testing your training is a good thing, but to say that it keeps the ego in check, well maybe in regards to the people that are kicking your ass it does, but overall no it doesn't, which is clearly evident by the constant posting by people not even training in WC that post here constantly trying to change our mindset about what we are doing, lol...Testing does one thing, it reveals to the individual what he/she needs to work on or what is good within their skill set.

The biggest problem in Wing Chun today is too much thinking, too much posting and too much comparison to other arts. Just train, spar, realize/actualize all of it, contimplate the results to yourself and your coach/sifu, repeat repeat repeat up until you are personally satisfied with your skills, without the need or desire to compare it to what you see on youtube or spike tv...


James "


Word!
True Dat!

I couldn't have said it better myself!

[Pacman]

That is one way to attempt to tackle the secrecy issue, but the giant ego thing is something else.

the secrecy issue is huge. fortunately for those with the skills and unfortunately for those who wish to gain those skills it is a part of TCM and Chinese culture in general Business men, chefs...even doctors keep their secrets to protect themselves or to keep an advantage.

the larger problem is people who have incomplete knowledge claiming that they are WC masters and teaching

in the old days they would have been called out and challenged. sifus are just teachers who run a business after all and so capitalism and open markets solved the issue.

nowadays we dont have open challenges. sifus are essentially government workers--people with jobs who can't get fired. competition via tournaments is the only way to bring back the open market and to weed out those with incomplete skills.

the secrecy issue is a big thing though. yuen kay san had only one student, sum nung, who he gained when he was already very old. if yuen kay san got hit but a bus before he taught sum nung, the knowledge would have been lost.

[duende]

Let me tell you all about what Kung Fu Culture means to me...

It means being respectful of your elders.

It means honoring those who have graciously shared their knowledge with you.

It means having respect for your fellow practitioners because YOU KNOW how hard it is to improve one's self and one's skill.

It's about EARNING your own respect and EARNING knowledge through hard work so that you can truly appreciate higher levels of understanding both mentally and physically.

It's about learning to distinguish where the real battles in life are, and knowing how to control one's own energy in all area's of life.


That's some of what Kung Fu Culture means to me anyways...

Obviously the Experts here have some other view.




Is it Hung Mun gang activity to simply want acknowledgment and respect for information shared? Any modern author has to cite their sources. Are they hung mun too?

Is it anachronistic to have disdain for rumor mills and gossip queens? Or is that simply having mutual respect for your fellow hard workers?

Heck, we all know what little copy rights hold in China these days. With rampant CD/DVD media and software piracy.

If you ask me, there are many activities in China that are in desperate need of Kung Fu Culture!






The real problem with WC if you as me. Is that it's full of egos and self illusions of grandeur. And it's an embarrassment.

Just look at this board.

You got Terence and Victor in a never ending pi$$y-fit.

You got Knifefighter always bopping in here like some socially retarded bully, who hates us, but has to come here for lack of friends anywhere else.

You got Hendrik, acting like a pretentious Kung Fu water-bender, who can't handle direct interaction... and always has to put others down to promote his supposedly enlightened chan ways...

Then you have the so called WC experts... Always spewing out BS to make peoples head spin, just so that they can take credit for re-inventing the farking wheel!




No secrecy is not a problem. Real men earn their respect and earn their knowledge through hard work and putting time in. Real men don't make silly demands for knowledge that they are not yet capable of fully understand or appreciating to begin with.

The problem with WC is, that it's people simply have to GROW THE FARK UP!

[Ultimatewingchun]

I personally don't really have a problem with basically anything you just wrote, duende.

But I would add this about what you didn't say:

In addition to the giant ego problem stuff you pointed out - secrecy in wing chun has been an enormous problem.

Enormous out-of-control egos...and Enormous amounts of out-of-control secrecy.

It's both.

[mjw]

I'd imagine that yip man taught different parts to help develop certain peoples weak points etc but who knows.....

[Niersun]

One problem that i found is that even though you learn all the forms and sets, your sifu wont reveal all the techniques he knows.

There are so many arm manipulation maneuvers and takedowns from Wing Chun blocks its not funny.

Im unsure whether this is just Chi-Na or apart of Wing Chun, but you wont learn it via the curriculum. In most curriculums, you will learn just to strike and not put your opponent in locks and there will be 5-6 takedowns. But in these locks you can still take your opponent down and strike.

Couple of years ago i was doing a demo at a shopping centre with GM and he put me through a **** load of locks. These locks are universal as i have found out, but they should be taught as curriculum. Maybe you have to get a red sash before its taught???