Body structure time to go to another level

[Hendrik]

thanks for the reply Robert,



how do you hide your obvious and make it subtle?

KFF,

I have been following your posts of questions for a while. My suggestion is you go Baisi with some one who knows these stuffs.

you need the true basic training or else you will not be able to comprehend what is going on.


I keep telling you, the so called link to ground or rooting.. are just a smaller smaller elements in the real deal. Without the basic training, dont even get near to understand Ming Jing, An Jing, Hua JIng, fajing.... because it involve experience of how to use one's mind, body,....etc.

Look at it just a minute ago you are asking all the questions about hip. and then you make claim on you can do Hua jing too. and then you like to know if grounding /rooting is a better description to Hua Jing....etc. Read your posts.

from the way you ask question, it indicates you are trying to make equvalen everything here to what you think you know. Well, the fact is you cant do that because these are things you dont have experience and dont know.

How can Robert and me helping you if you keep on this type of behaviour of not accepting what you dont know but merry go round on trying to think grounding is hua jing.....etc which is totally off the mark?

and also, how can you learn these stuffs over eternet? you cant. you simply need a sifu who know what it is. and also you might need to pay big money for it if you want it. As both Robert and me have done both on Baisi and pay big money for it.

These are reality you might not like. but you are wasting time in the previous few posts. also no one is obligate to teach you since it is already an act of kindness trying to help you. not to tell you it is impossible for your to learn things this way, how many years have you trying to get information from me about the Yik Kam snake technology...etc? take a look at your previous post, those who knows what I am talking about know I have told you a great deal in details but you still dont get it. why? because you dont have the proper basic in this field. and blocking yourself out with your own logic.

But you got to know what is the proper way to return the kindness. that is go learn with a true sifu. otherwise both Robert and I are wasting our time trying to help you.

[JPinAZ]

Since I started this topic, I suggest to focus on this topic instead doing personal attack or promoting one's lineage ....ect.

Start your own topic if you like to share you story or promote/ advertise your style's superiority /legitimate...etc which got nothing to do with this topic of structure.

Actually, Alex's post talks about structure throughout! Things like Tin Yan Dei and sup ming dim are all about structure! As did many other posts you wouldn't comment on. Maybe you only want to discuss with a select few people, and ignore the rest, which is pretty evident thru this thread? Perhaps you just don't like views that differ from your own? I think you shouldn't have such thin skin for a 'kung fu man'.
Maybe it would be better if you just start your own forum and only allow access to those you deem worthy of discussion. Or allow just you alone on that forum so your views are never questioned, would that work for you?

[chusauli]

LOL!!

Can't say I blame you.

For my part, I sincerely apologize to everyone here on the board.

In truth, I thought there was a chance in these recent dialogs, to open discussion and put some of these long-standing issues to bed.

It may seem over-optimistic, but heck... that's my nature I guess.


For anyone that's truly interested... I would like to answer some of Robert's statements here, and try my best to nurture positive conversation.

I think there is a positive discussion. I admire you, Alex. You have shared more insights rather than attacking. I respect you highly.

I also apologize to the board here, if this doesn't interest you, ignore it.

This is good advice for everyone. We should all empty our cups a bit more when sharing and discussing WCK with others.

Amen.

Glad to hear it.

However, what I'm trying to convey to you here is that how we express these concepts, via logic flow and consistent body karma though-out is where our differences lay.

So when you say we are all WCK. Yes, I agree with you. But I also understand our distinct differences, and moreover... see the importance of preserving and maintaining the integrity of the art I personally study (HFY).

I have witnessed you write numerous times about personal interpretation and expression in WCK. In the HFY system, there is no room for such things, as they inevitably lead to distortion and modifications of our HFYWC core principles.

Everyone has a personal interpretation, regardless of system. You may have the same root, but each of you sees things differently. For example, Chan only has one truth, but so many interpretations. Men's minds are fast or slow, sudden or gradual.

You do that to pass on your legacy, that is an important job for you and the HFY family.

"Any individual interpretations or attempts to combine the system with other styles will deviate from these concepts and, therefore, render the system ineffective."
Complete Wing Chun pg 88, Hung Seun Wing Chun Kuen section, discussing the importance of understanding the system concepts and principles.

Remember that one??

Sure, but I also know this - in the classical arts, one portion of the art contains the information of the whole organism. For example, Ba Gua can be embodied in the single palm change. Or Xing Yi's Pi Quan can represent all five fists in a way. A "true" teaching has all of it in one part.

So whether you mean to or not. When you brush us off time and time again as being TWC (Which is of course a great and respected system of it's own), it is in fact highly insulting. Not because we have anything against TWC, but because it negates so much that is HFY.

I am not trying to put any other system down here. I come to this board to share and grow my own understandings. But I am compelled to clarify misunderstandings and misrepresentations when I see them.

Fine, but this is a WCK discussion board, not a HFY discussion board.

I did not say you were TWC, but reminded me of it. You are HFY, and the closest thing it reminds me of is TWC. It should not be an insult, TWC is a great art, a beautiful form of WCK. You cannot deny there are great similarities. And of course, you have differences.

Yeah... I'm not into snide comments or inflammatory remarks from either side. I too believe that all of us here are not so different. People are people. We should all step back and just appreciate this great gift that we have all been exposed to, and not get caught up in silly internet egotism.

Good. All I have done is speak with you openly. I'm sure if you took the time to speak with me in person or on the phone, you know I am not unreasonable.

Agreed,

And I know Spiderman very well too, although I was more of a Green Lantern space freak.

I like Hal Jordan and the GL Corps as well!

First off, let's not confuse Chi Sim's Tin Yan Dei expression or Kiu Sau understandings for HFY's. They are not the same.

Chi Sim's TYD is derrived from Animal Kung Fu. Just look at their body mechanics, and you'll see leaning postures, bending over, and jumping around. Nothing against them, but this all goes against the WC principles of economy of motion and self-centerline.

HFY TYD is about power generation, body alignment, targeting, leverage, and gravity control WITHIN the WCK core principles and concepts. HFY and Chi Sim TYD may overlap in some ways on a philosophical level, but in actual physical expression.. They are very different.


In regards to Kiu Sau.. again, their 18-point Kiu Sau such as "cat washes face" uses classical Animal Kung Fu physical expression. Bending and dropping down, extending limbs, 3-gate side/body etc... Which are complete no no's in HFY as they exemplify what we call long arm/short arm. Instead, our HFY Sei Buhn Dim Kiu Sau again reflects WCK core concepts and principles, and is an integral to our Chi Sau. Our Kiu Sau technology, has it's own facings, body karma, and timeframe usages that are quite different than Tan Bong Fook Chi Sau.

I will let the Weng Chun people speak for themselves.

As for Sup Ming Dim. It is not a package at all. It is a simple refined outline of our HFYWCK reference points. Simplicity is just another example of "economy of motion". A trait we should all strive for both inside and outside of our Kung Fu. Btw... did you notice the logic flow once again?

In truth, Sup Ming Dim is only the very beginning of understanding HFY structural energy.

Pamela Anderson is a nice package. So is Nicole Scherzinger. Get it? Maybe you're not from NYC... LOL!

As for fishy things and secrets... We have an open door. Everyone is invited to come visit. We do not do video's and such online, because we do not feel that they adequately teach KF and instead lead to personal interpretations and distortions of knowledge. Which as I explained earlier, is against our fundamental beliefs.

That's all there is to it.

Yes, "Hou Chuen San Sao" and all that - it can be interpreted as overly secretive. Again, being like this, you perpetuate part of your own karma. You have to take this as your responsibility.

Let's not get too caught up in terms. As this is where our some of our misconnect lie.

I never questioned 6 vector forces legitimacy. Only offered my own understanding on the subject matter.

Regardless, our understanding of energy is also nothing new. Unless you consider 5 elements concepts as being new. But as you are an acupuncturist.. I highly doubt it.

Ok.

When I refer to system, I am using it the manner of say the nervous system, or other fractals. A true system is composed of many many parts. But each part in itself, reflects the whole. This is the nature of organicism. Logic flow throughout is obviously an inherent attribute.

I personally believe man kinds greatest achievements have this organic quality.

This is what "everlasting springtime" means to me. No matter where you look... be it inside or outside the art of WCK. You will always find new ways to apply what we have learned in WCK.

That's it for me...

Peace out.

We have the same idea for "Praise of Spring", or "Perpetual Spring". If we do not have this, we have not attained.

[chusauli]

thanks for the reply Robert,



how do you hide your obvious and make it subtle?

<Smack!>

The sound of one hand clapping ...

Any one here want to take a stab at it and help KFF?

Alex?

Anyone else?

[CFT]

<Smack!>

The sound of one hand clapping ...

Any one here want to take a stab at it and help KFF?

Alex?

Anyone else?

Well, I probably don't have the right idea of "An Jing", but for me, taking something obvious and making it suble as far as martial arts practice is concerned is: start your practice with large movements/obvious force and then through practice and refinement make the motions smaller to achieve the same effect.

I say "motions" but really this is a combination of movement, force (jing), range, timing. Going from "more than enough" to "just enough" to achieve the desired effect.

[kung fu fighter]

for me, taking something obvious and making it suble as far as martial arts practice is concerned is: start your practice with large movements/obvious force and then through practice and refinement make the motions smaller to achieve the same effect.

I say "motions" but really this is a combination of movement, force (jing), range, timing. Going from "more than enough" to "just enough" to achieve the desired effect.

I agree! that's also what I assumed An jing is! Small movement is better than big movement, no movement is better than small movement

[YungChun]

Not only conservation of motion and energy but getting the opponent into a position where he is most vulnerable helps..

[Hendrik]

I agree! that's also what I assumed An jing is! Small movement is better than big movement, no movement is better than small movement

This is the slogan we all learn isnt it?

However, those are just some ideas and saying,

what is the process? what is the mechanism? how to do it? are the bottom line.

What is An Jing? What is Hua Jing? For me, it is beyong the saying above. it is well define. and the so called "small movement" is just a by product of it not the handling key or handle. Thus, if one think they do a small movement will arive at An Jing, that could be miss leading.

it doesnt work that way.


For me,
The following is from Emei 12 Zhuang. and An Jing is described with details.

大小开合，唯妙于心。
如如不动，是真阴阳，
宝斯不动，发用乃常。
不动动生，意动神到，开合降升。
开合一如，结丹在兹。
彬彬克敌，分寸之中。
轻若鸿毛，重逾泰山，
用中无形，体用一焉。

[duende]

<Smack!>

The sound of one hand clapping ...

Any one here want to take a stab at it and help KFF?

Alex?

Anyone else?

It sounds like the end goal here is to get past or compromise an opponents structure without them knowing it.

Little moves can be used to nuetralize oncoming energy, by taking away leverage. Not moving at all, and allowing opponents movements to pass by, can influence resulting angles and create positional advantage.

I understand why Hendrik references snake energy in these regard.

Fwiw, I've seen this technology not only in WC, but Five Family Ancestor Kung Fu and others as well.

However, comparing this technology and making references to Bai Jong is not accurate IMO. It's like comparing orange's slices to it's seeds. Both are part of the same fruit, but do not serve the same immediate purpose.

[kung fu fighter]

For me, The following is from Emei 12 Zhuang. and An Jing is described with details.

大小开合，唯妙于心。
如如不动，是真阴阳，
宝斯不动，发用乃常。
不动动生，意动神到，开合降升。
开合一如，结丹在兹。
彬彬克敌，分寸之中。
轻若鸿毛，重逾泰山，
用中无形，体用一焉。

Hendrik, perhaps you can translate this into english for us non chinese speaking people

[Hendrik]

Hendrik, perhaps you can translate this into english for us non chinese speaking people

I am waiting for the Masters here to translate and explain it.

[m1k3]

I am waiting for the Masters here to translate and explain it.

Here ya go. Chinese isn't my strong suit so I'm sure someone can clean this up a little.

Size of the open and close, Wei Miao in mind.
Such as fixed, is the true yin and yang,
Po Si fixed, hair is often used.
Fixed motional, conative God that open and close uplift.
One such open, end Dan in mind.
Bin-bin beat the opposition, measured into.
If a feather light, weighing more than Mount Tai,
with the invisible, body with a Yan.