On A Personal note, A Passing of a Good Man.

[sanjuro_ronin]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raymond_Franz

Raymond Franz was an former Jehovah's Witness who swerved on their Governing Body ( think Cardinals in the Vatican but more power) and left when he found out that, well, all was not well in Oz.

I came to know OF Ray via his two very good books:
Crisis of Conscience and In Search of Christian Freedom.

My Mother, Father and eldest sister are JW's and for the last 5 years I have been studying cults and religion to not only try to help them but to help myself and my family since we are exposed to these teachings.

Ray was instrumental in helping me and his books are a must read for anyone that has family members in the JW's.

He died today from complications of a stroke:
On May 30th, 2010, Franz suffered a stroke. His wife Cynthia on June 2nd has taken him off of Life Support. He passed away at the age of 88.

He was a GOOD man and he will be missed by the 100's perhaps 1000's of people that he helped.

He will be missed by me.


Yeah, this is the most personal I have ever gotten on this forum I think...

[David Jamieson]

That his cornerstone for personal change was this: 'The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie — deliberate, contrived and dishonest — but the myth—persistent, persuasive and unrealistic.' is brilliant and quite telling of a capable mind.

condolences.

[sanjuro_ronin]

That his cornerstone for personal change was this: 'The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie — deliberate, contrived and dishonest — but the myth—persistent, persuasive and unrealistic.' is brilliant and quite telling of a capable mind.

condolences.

Thanks David, he was a an honest, good man and his only advice was to find out the truth for ourselves and not let anyone or any group dictate it to us.
He spent the rest of his life warning people about a group that though it great to put the faces of children that died because either they or their parents didn't allow their lives to be saved by a blood transfusion

[Dale Dugas]

Paul,

I am sorry to hear of his passing.

My prayers to you, and your entire clan.

[KC Elbows]

My condolences, Paul.

[1bad65]

He sounds like a good, honest man.

[TaichiMantis]

God's peace to his family and yours. I just found out one of my classmates is JW after I asked him why he doesn't go to thursday classes...

[sanjuro_ronin]

God's peace to his family and yours. I just found out one of my classmates is JW after I asked him why he doesn't go to thursday classes...

He probably has bible study or has to go to the Kingdom Hall.


Thanks for all the kind words guys, it means a lot.

[Jimbo]

SR,
He sounds like he was a great man, and his passing is a loss. My condolences to you.

Back in the '90s, my older sister and her husband were briefly involved with a very strange Christian group (though not JW) that had brainwashed them into believing the world was ending in 1994 (forget which month). They were absolutely convinced, and I remember them emphatically and tearfully begging the rest of the family to convert before the end arrived. This they tried more than once, on and on.

Needless to say, the world is still here, and very luckily, my sister and her husband woke up and left that stuff behind of their own accord. It's scary how people can be taken in and brainwashed by such groups.

[sanjuro_ronin]

SR,
He sounds like he was a great man, and his passing is a loss. My condolences to you.

Back in the '90s, my older sister and her husband were briefly involved with a very strange Christian group (though not JW) that had brainwashed them into believing the world was ending in 1994 (forget which month). They were absolutely convinced, and I remember them emphatically and tearfully begging the rest of the family to convert before the end arrived. This they tried more than once, on and on.

Needless to say, the world is still here, and very luckily, my sister and her husband woke up and left that stuff behind of their own accord. It's scary how people can be taken in and brainwashed by such groups.

Over the years I have become more involved with survivors of cults, doomsday ones and just "regular" ones, that damage is long lasting.
I don't know if I will be able to get my family out of there, but I can be the voice of reason.
For this I am even studying theology, specifically the NT.
Education is the greatest deterent of these controlling cults.
Of course I also see the same thing in MA cults, the resemblances are quite scary at times.

[sanjuro_ronin]

From a website dedicated in helping people cope with either leaving the JW's or dealing with them:
http://www.freeminds.org/

[KC Elbows]

IME, dealing with the damage tends toward two contrary positions. One is in recognizing the destructive nature of the cult, the other in recognizing that the power of the leader or doctrine of the cult was overblown from the start, and so any behavior that makes it seem large can easily feed this.

With Chung Moo Quan, you get people who now despise John Kim, but make his acts into things that have an evil and perpetual spiritual quality, when, in fact, the total lack of real spiritualism precludes him having that sort of spiritual power, it is the observer projecting their own power, which they had to cede to the leader, but never truly belonged to the leader.

Cult leaders are the measliest, weakest, most fearful people on the planet by the very activity of the cult. They become dependent on inner circles, but can't trust those, and fear nothing more than another authority. To hold a position of authority in a cult requires these same traits be adopted, and to diverge then means that your inequity, which is modeled directly upon that of the leadership, is used to demean you by those still in. Andy Warhol coined the phrase 'guru trap' to describe the way being the guru surrounded you with sycophants and took away voices that contributed to anything other than your glorification, but he at least had a job, most gurus provide nothing whatsoever except the convenience of not having to run your own life or take responsibility.

Any practice done primarily so that one can be 'better' than others is destructive, imo.

[sanjuro_ronin]

IME, dealing with the damage tends toward two contrary positions. One is in recognizing the destructive nature of the cult, the other in recognizing that the power of the leader or doctrine of the cult was overblown from the start, and so any behavior that makes it seem large can easily feed this.

With Chung Moo Quan, you get people who now despise John Kim, but make his acts into things that have an evil and perpetual spiritual quality, when, in fact, the total lack of real spiritualism precludes him having that sort of spiritual power, it is the observer projecting their own power, which they had to cede to the leader, but never truly belonged to the leader.

Cult leaders are the measliest, weakest, most fearful people on the planet by the very activity of the cult. They become dependent on inner circles, but can't trust those, and fear nothing more than another authority. To hold a position of authority in a cult requires these same traits be adopted, and to diverge then means that your inequity, which is modeled directly upon that of the leadership, is used to demean you by those still in. Andy Warhol coined the phrase 'guru trap' to describe the way being the guru surrounded you with sycophants and took away voices that contributed to anything other than your glorification, but he at least had a job, most gurus provide nothing whatsoever except the convenience of not having to run your own life or take responsibility.

Any practice done primarily so that one can be 'better' than others is destructive, imo.

Well said.

[IronWeasel]

Sorry for your loss, my friend.