Stopping the takedown

[shawchemical]

Let me explain what I mean by "the method".

When you learn BJJ you don't just learn (1) a bunch of techniques-- more importantly (2) you learn to roll. You learn to roll and the techniques are there to help you roll better, but it is the rolling that is important. And that's why traditional JJJ doesn't produce good fighters -- they have the techniques but they don't learn and practice rolling.

When you learn to box, you don't just learn (1) a bunch of techniques -- more importantly (2) you learn to box. You learn to box and the techniques are there to help you box better, but it is the boxing that is important. If you learned the techniques but not how to box, you'd stink.

In WCK, you don't just learn (1) a bunch of techniques -- more importantly (2) you learn the method (which corresponds to rolling or boxing). You learn the method and the techniques are there to help you implement the method better, but it is the method that is important.

The WCK method is flexible -- just like GNP is flexible. But if you aren't taking the guy to the ground, dominating position, and striking him you aren't doing GNP, you aren't doing its method. And, when you don't do it's method, you find that you end up not using most of the material in the curriculum -- since the material is to help you use the method!

Similarly, WCK's method is to control while striking. If you don't use that method, you will end up not using most of its tools -- because the tools are there to help you use the method.

Nope, you've got it wrong, but that's not surprising.

VTK is a striking method fundamentally. The control is secondary to the striking itself, for there is no need to control someone who is lying unconscious on the ground.
Control is important when your strike makes contact with something preventing it's penetration through its target, but only to allow the next strike to connect. To think of it as control FIRST means that you will only ever end up chasing hands and playing pattycake. Probably a pretty good explanation of why you think it doesn't work at all T. But to think of it as simply controlling first, then hitting is wrong.

[shawchemical]

Terence, by his own monotonic explanations, is doing it the best he can . He can only make it work by over using arms, iow, he has to predominantly use his 2 arms to control one arm so he can strike...common basic level wck use. And doesnt take a great amount of skill.
Its unrefined and relies on 'over-control' because he has no alternative methods in his repertoire....simple really, he doesnt know any other way.
He doesnt understand any alternative vt ideas, so he dismisses them as 'fantasy-fu' because he is unaware of them...well my fantasy-fu [tm] will certainly drag you out of that well your hiding in so conveniently.

Could be, or it could also be that he's heard of the ideas, but severely lacks the ability to implement them effectively. Thus using his logic, if he can't do them they don't work for anyone, and anyone who can do it is simply involved in fantasy land fighting.

I wonder how many concussions it would take him to realise that some people can implement techniques he cannot.

[k gledhill]

I wouldnt waste your time waiting .... He is old and set in his ways.

[grasshopper 2.0]

What do you do when the opponent gets your leg?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qlx3ay8dELQ

is the answer. Don't believe me?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4G-occarX0w

I see the point of the post. I just wanted to add a few things:

1) it's not really about the strike. I agree, unless you got one helluva strike, that really won't do much

2) if you watch how william cheung does it vs. the student, there is a significant difference - william cheung disrupts the axis of the "grappler" while the student does not. When the axis isn't disrupted, the "grappler" has more opportunity to go on with the next move.

3) william cheung spreads low and moves to his left...in essence, anticipating the next move, since he already knows what's coming. Kind of not fair nor realistic in that manner.

[CFT]

You've both made some good points without making it overly personal with Terence. Whilst I agree that WCK is designed as a striking system primarily, I think you are dismissing Terence's personal experience far too readily.

If he is training with MMA people, where striking is but one component ... and clinching and groundfighting are valid approaches to stifle your opponents striking game ... then I think it should not come as a surprise that Terence's implementation of WCK has more controlling aspects.

[bennyvt]

yes his way of dealing with it. As thats what he is tryin to do. Get in a clinch. As thats what you pde and his teacher hasn't been able to teach him imy to do good vt so he makes the bad stuff work as well as it can. What about the other people that train with mma guys. Just beatare t says he is the only one doesn't make it so. I understand his thinking. When i an learning from my friend, a shoot fighter. We in from punching to clinch, take downs and ground work. I have found numerous times that what he is showing me is like or can be improved or done in a vt way. Its not vt but. That a leg triangle i was not moving and controling his posture so he would just stand up. He showed me to push the arm across, lock my legs and push the head down, if he stands grab the knee. Trying it i found i could pak sao, slide up in one movement and grab the head. By using my elbow to control the arm i had a free hand so i could keep the arm across, hold down the head and control the leg or punch. This is not vt this is using it to make something better.

[Frost]

yes his way of dealing with it. As thats what he is tryin to do. Get in a clinch. As thats what you pde and his teacher hasn't been able to teach him imy to do good vt so he makes the bad stuff work as well as it can. What about the other people that train with mma guys. Just beatare t says he is the only one doesn't make it so. I understand his thinking. When i an learning from my friend, a shoot fighter. We in from punching to clinch, take downs and ground work. I have found numerous times that what he is showing me is like or can be improved or done in a vt way. Its not vt but. That a leg triangle i was not moving and controling his posture so he would just stand up. He showed me to push the arm across, lock my legs and push the head down, if he stands grab the knee. Trying it i found i could pak sao, slide up in one movement and grab the head. By using my elbow to control the arm i had a free hand so i could keep the arm across, hold down the head and control the leg or punch. This is not vt this is using it to make something better.

there are many ways to hold the opponent and finish him in the triangle, if you hold the head correctly he will not be able to posture up.

can i ask are you training at a well known shootfighting/MMA gym or just training with a friend who is a shootfighter? there is a big difference between the two and that is where T is coming from

[t_niehoff]

Nope, you've got it wrong, but that's not surprising.

VTK is a striking method fundamentally. The control is secondary to the striking itself, for there is no need to control someone who is lying unconscious on the ground.

This is what theoretical nonfighters always do: assume the best case scenario. You apparently think that you will have some defenseless opponent that you will just overwhelm with your fists of granite!

If you can hit him, he can hit you. So what stops him from hitting you? Most likely, he will hit harder than you, maybe faster than you, etc. If you are in range to hit him,he is also in range to grab you, to charge in, etc. But, yes, I know, once again you will end it with one strike from your fists of granite.

WCK is supposed to be a smaller person's art, for someone who doesn't want to exchange or trade punches, etc.

Control is important when your strike makes contact with something preventing it's penetration through its target, but only to allow the next strike to connect. To think of it as control FIRST means that you will only ever end up chasing hands and playing pattycake. Probably a pretty good explanation of why you think it doesn't work at all T. But to think of it as simply controlling first, then hitting is wrong.

Are you guys f#cking idiots? I NEVER said WCK doesn't work.

First of all, the WCK method, the faat mun, isn't something I made up. It is a part of the WCK core curriculum. I can't help it if you and some others have never learned it. I can't help if you haven't learned the kuen kuit. I can't help it if you don't know what chi sao is for. Second,I can't help it that you don't understand the difference between chasing hands and chasing control. All this tells me is that your training is incomplete. Go find an instructor that can round out your education.

[t_niehoff]

Terence, by his own monotonic explanations, is doing it the best he can . He can only make it work by over using arms, iow, he has to predominantly use his 2 arms to control one arm so he can strike...common basic level wck use. And doesnt take a great amount of skill.

That's not what I am talking about at all.

Its unrefined and relies on 'over-control' because he has no alternative methods in his repertoire....simple really, he doesnt know any other way.

Sure I do -- I learned WCK pretty much the same way as most of you.

Most people in WCK never learn the faat mun. You don't know it. This isn't something I made up, it is the WCK "battle plan", the organizing principle of the art. It permits you to put the pieces of the puzzle together. I didn't know it either, even after 17 years in WCK. I was fortunate enough to find someone who did know it. But he's not the only one -- various people from various lineages know it.

He doesnt understand any alternative vt ideas, so he dismisses them as 'fantasy-fu' because he is unaware of them...well my fantasy-fu [tm] will certainly drag you out of that well your hiding in so conveniently.

Sure, I understand the "alternate ideas" and (1) they don't correspond to the traditional faat mun and (2) they are either completely unrealistic or overly simplistic.

[k gledhill]

You dont understand all aspects of VT so you assume its all about hitting with fists of granite .... tsk tsk twitch ! yes we know, .....the faat !

[t_niehoff]

You dont understand all aspects of VT so you assume its all about hitting with fists of granite .... tsk tsk twitch ! the faat !

Theory (fantasy) is great. Go see how it works at the MMA gym.

[sanjuro_ronin]

No, I'm doing it. And because I'm doing it, I see it. If you aren't doing it, you don't see it.

That is exactly what everyone else says too.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Again we get to see the same old problem:
WC IS clinch fighting
WC ISN'T clinch fitting
As if it must be one or the other, as if it can't be both.
Guys, my point is that WC can be whatever you want it to be as long as it freaking works for you.
T's WC is Clinch boxing, great.
Someone else's WC is NOT, and that's ok too.
Stop with the absolutes, you guys sound like a bunch of 3rd world religious zelots.

[bennyvt]

i didn't know other them in america you had shoot fighting schools. No i just train with him, no school. I do train with other guys when i can but with work and kids. Pm if you know about the history of shoot and you might know his teacher who still fights today.

[SAAMAG]

Terence, by his own monotonic explanations, is doing it the best he can . He can only make it work by over using arms, iow, he has to predominantly use his 2 arms to control one arm so he can strike...common basic level wck use. And doesnt take a great amount of skill.
Its unrefined and relies on 'over-control' because he has no alternative methods in his repertoire....simple really, he doesnt know any other way.
He doesnt understand any alternative vt ideas, so he dismisses them as 'fantasy-fu' because he is unaware of them...well my fantasy-fu [tm] will certainly drag you out of that well your hiding in so conveniently.

Honestly Kevin, have you EVER controlled both the arms of an equal or greater skilled person with one only one arm?

I say this because while it is the theory to achieve this, more often than not it's not the reality. I can see using the single arm to block and strike (punch using the bridge to press and strike through an incoming strike), I can see the occasional side trap and strike (meaning use the guys own arm to control the body from the outside gate by pressing), I can see faan sao even where one controls and the other strikes. But to get the full vertical trap and ability to use one arm to hold and one arm to strike is pretty much nil if you're fighting someone of equal or better skill.

If you pull this off constantly, then you need to fight better people. Big fish in small pond only increases teaching skill, not application skill.