Erik Paulson, wing chun, and the clinch

[goju]

You must be the lonliest man alive. Try some internet dating. I am sure that there is a women or man out there for you. Someone has to be seeking out a washed up loser whose biggest claim to fame is trolling a kung fu forum.

[Ultimatewingchun]

I'm pretty sure Victor was talking about both entry and in the clinch, but you'll have to ask him.

***I was not talking about using wing chun once in the clinch.

[Ultimatewingchun]

thats how i read it too, the whole chi sao control position being similar to the steering wheel and so on

***Okay, now I understand. The fuk sao-like bicep tie that Erik demos - and the turning (steering wheel) motion is very similar to wing chun chi sao motions...yes...but I know from experience to quickly take the wing chun hat off once in such a clinch-type mode as what Erik demoes - and what he compares to chi sao and fuk sao...

in truth, I like the Greco way of holding the bicep tie waaaay more than a fuk sao hand/wrist position.

[Ultimatewingchun]

I may live to regret this post, but.....

If you ask me, arguing over whether Wing Chun was designed to ENTER the clinch or AVOID the clinch is a false premise

Wing Chun, like pretty much all TCMA, is based upon a presupposed context, which in the days it was developed was what we sometimes call "bridge fighting".

If two people agree (consciously or unconsiously) to fight in a certain context the techniques will work there differently than if one person is trying to play "that game" and the other has a "different game"

A student who did Taekwondo for years asked me why the kicks are different in San Da, I told him because in TKD there are certain presumptions, in San Da, different ones. In modern fighting, influenced by "MMA" there are newere ones.

Personally, I like that Erik has taken material from widely different sources and integrated it into a system that is relevant for today's assumptions. (Dave Ross)
........................................

***THAT'S a good observation, Dave. Wing chun is basically close range striking - which means that very often they'll be limb-to-limb contact (bridging)...which, as I suspect you would agree with - is different than "attached" fighting...in that wing chun is designed for close quarters and bridging - but once in clinch mode - wing chun is out of it's bounds. The system is not about "attachment".

True, there is the wooden dummy move wherein a single neck/head tie is in play while the other hand strikes, and there are a few sweeps in the system - which naturally require an unbalancing of the opponent before the actual sweep (or a hit to set it up)...

but these moves are the exception to the rule. In general, wing chun is all about striking the opponent while having both of one's arms in play (and with both arms able to be free) for multiple hits.

[Ultimatewingchun]

WC has some good stuff, when applied correctly, case in point this use of the double palms:

***NO, I'm sorry Paul, but that's bad wing chun. He shouldn't be pushing her away with those double palms - he should be pulling her towards him.

[Frost]

Hypothetically, if he were teaching WC, you would have to say that it wasn't quite correct in that he had the option of which position to pick based on his entry. Therefore, he should have chosen a neck tie of some kind so that he could strike.

Keep in mind that I am not against the over under. It is a good position that needs some coverage. I am only saying that if the mentality of someone is to use WC to get into a grappling position to grapple rather than strike then they are stepping outside of what WC is. It isn't good or bad. It is just a reality.

i think he was using it to get into the clinch and strike or throw, i don't think he had a preference other than showing the basic position you end up in most of the time in the clinch. 50/50 is the position you have to teach first because its what happens the most, then you have to earn the right to strike in the clinch.

I understand you point about teaching the necktie for striking but using the entries he was showing it would have been hard to get a double tie up, and when it comes to striking in the clinch the double tie is the position you want

[punchdrunk]

interesting clip, looks like Erik Paulson gives a good seminar and knows how to tailor things for specific student types. lots of good ideas in his vids for training san da.