levels of training partners

[bennyvt]

i think this is a good topic. Who actually trains with elite fighters. I live in a city in australia where the closest mma school is about two hours away. I have three kids and work full time. I train with the best guys available to me. I train with my vt school, my friend that does shoot fighting. I have spared against 4th dan tkd, bjj purple belts, kkk, judo bb, kickboxer (broke my arm when i tried to do the kwan and kick from dummy too many times). Boxers etc. In other words anyone i could that was good. I work as security and have had fights on and off the job. Does this mean my vt doesn't work as they are not ufc fighters. I was taught that you want to train with guys slightly better for defence and slightly better for attack. Too much better them you either just defend or attack without control or any defence. Just some thoughts..

[Frost]

i train out of two gyms here in the UK, one's a small private gym that turns out kickboxers that fight at mostly local and regional shows but which also trains MMA.

The others a well known MMA gym that producers fighters for the UFC as well as other shows in the UK, Japan and America and which medals in every grappling competition it enters and where several national judo guys also train

you need training partners that will push you and inspire you to get better, but you also need partners slightly less good than you so you can practise new stuff and get the timing down...but if i had to chose it would be to go with guys much better than guys worse than me, you either rise to a level or sink to it

[bennyvt]

is that the wolfs lair?

[Frost]

nope leicester shootfighters its more known in the UK for its grappling but MMA wise its where andre winner and jimmy wallhead learned their skills, and most of the nottingham rough house guys train there as well. Dan Hardy does his pre fight training their and the caoch corners him most fights, when i started Paul daley was a regular there and still pops down on occasion

[goju]

i was a t'sko for a year and sparred frequerntly with their amateur team

it was fun to spar with guys who has competed in that type of area

[anerlich]

I trained for a year at a school run by two UFC fighters, one of whom was also a four time BJJ black belt Australian champion. Now I train with one of the pioneers of BJJ and MMA in my state and BJJ world Seniors brown belt title holder now second degree black belt, who was one of the first instructors of both the aforementioned UFC fighters.

I trained on Wednesday in BJJ with a pro MMA fighter who holds an Australian title on the CFC circuit.

One of my WC sihings recently returned from a visit to Hawaii where he trained MMA at BJ Penn's gym. Two other WC guys who had been there before also went with him.

It's usually not difficult to find very good and experienced people to train with in any large city.

There are few world champions, but for those of us who aren't professional fighters it's usually not hard to find someone plenty good enough to push us to our limits.

I'm pretty confident that a number of people I train with every week are at least as good at what they do as is anyone T or Alan Orr trains with regularly.

[Wayfaring]

Grapplers, yes. MMA I would have to say no. Elite fighters in my vocabulary would be top MMA fighters - your GSP's, Silva's, etc. Even if I have trained at schools that a couple close to that level trains at, (like t'sko / grudge goju) I personally would work with an amateur fight team not the elite guys as they tend to have small circles they train with for specific purposes. So no, I train with people about 3 levels under that - UFC elite top 1st, UFC low/mid tier 2nd, WEC/Bellator/IFL/etc 3rd, and top level local pros 4th, local amateurs 5th. My circles are mostly 4 and 5, with sometimes occasional 3 and 2.

As far as the categories bennyvt is talking about, bjj purples aren't that big of a deal, 4th dan tkd guys aren't either with some exceptions (actually one of them is a bjj purple where I train), judo bb's aren't that impressive (except the guys here who work with the olympic training center), I don't know what kkk is other than a group of rednecks, and the kickboxers are usually in one of the above categories including grappling, except for some MT coaches who don't grapple.

Mostly around here people compare apples to oranges, and don't even know what peaches are.

[bennyvt]

I don't mean for people to say how good their training partners are. I mean it more in response to terrences constant assumption that unless you are training with the best then your VT doesn't work. I mean if my edurance, time available etc etc are more in line with amatuer boxers then do I have to be training with UFC guys to say it works.
Take this, I was in a fight many years ago when I had been training about 8 months. I am 165 cms tall and 65 kgs, this guy was a maori (newzealander)atleast 210-220cms and about 130-140 kgs. So a below lightweight fighting a heavy weight. To cut a long story short he did hit me after throwing 15 punches and I forgot to hit him. This guy was a local boxer as he was be T's definition a scrub. Does this count to any credence of VT working as he wasn't elite but I wasn't either. My point being I would love to train enough to need to train with elite guys but Fighting guys way over my ability is just useless.

[t_niehoff]

I am not saying only train with the "very best" or "elite" -- just the best you can find, and preferably they need to be better than you.

Do you think you will become a good grappler rolling only with white belts?

What you don't seem to appreciate is that I am saying that you need to train like a fighter (to develop fighting skill). That does invovle lots of sparring, but it is directed, deliberate practice not just random sparring (once in a while).

WCK instructors may be able to teach the WCK curriculum (forms, dummy, drills, etc.) but for the most part, they aren't fight trainers and they know absolutely nothing about training good fighters. Good, skilled fighters and fight trainers know how to train -- including sparring which is the core of the training -- effectively. It's this that I am referring to.

[LoneTiger108]

If you want to train at your peak, and raise your game, I would think it makes sense to train with people who have a higher skill than yourself.

Personally, this would go beyond just fighting for competitions, I would say the same for practising forms and weaponry.

This is one reason that the hierachy of TCM exists imo, the sihing/sidai relationship. It's just so unfortunate that elders are very hard to come by for some...

[sanjuro_ronin]

i think this is a good topic. Who actually trains with elite fighters. I live in a city in australia where the closest mma school is about two hours away. I have three kids and work full time. I train with the best guys available to me. I train with my vt school, my friend that does shoot fighting. I have spared against 4th dan tkd, bjj purple belts, kkk, judo bb, kickboxer (broke my arm when i tried to do the kwan and kick from dummy too many times). Boxers etc. In other words anyone i could that was good. I work as security and have had fights on and off the job. Does this mean my vt doesn't work as they are not ufc fighters. I was taught that you want to train with guys slightly better for defence and slightly better for attack. Too much better them you either just defend or attack without control or any defence. Just some thoughts..

You need to train with people that test you, period.
Even if you have to "handicap" yourself.

As for me, I had the previlage of training with some Elite fighters under Carlos Newton and at one point I was one of Wagnney Fabiano's training partners.
Well, his punching bag really
I was only there for 9 months, but in those 9 months I was enlightened as to what it means to TRAIN and FIGHT the elite.

[wtxs]

I am not saying only train with the "very best" or "elite" -- just the best you can find, and preferably they need to be better than you.

Do you think you will become a good grappler rolling only with white belts?

What you don't seem to appreciate is that I am saying that you need to train like a fighter (to develop fighting skill). That does invovle lots of sparring, but it is directed, deliberate practice not just random sparring (once in a while).

WCK instructors may be able to teach the WCK curriculum (forms, dummy, drills, etc.) but for the most part, they aren't fight trainers and they know absolutely nothing about training good fighters. Good, skilled fighters and fight trainers know how to train -- including sparring which is the core of the training -- effectively. It's this that I am referring to.

Stop making sense already!!! Must be some thing with the yogurt for lunch, we all should give it a try.

[goju]

Grapplers, yes. MMA I would have to say no. Elite fighters in my vocabulary would be top MMA fighters - your GSP's, Silva's, etc. Even if I have trained at schools that a couple close to that level trains at, (like t'sko / grudge goju) I personally would work with an amateur fight team not the elite guys as they tend to have small circles they train with for specific purposes.

yes indeed good point! and this is another way to know who is telling the truth about their training!

while i was there i rarely EVER saw the pros with the exception of duane ludwig and that was because he was doing privates at the time, occasionally i would see carwin but he was usually leaving as i was coming in. ( he is a very small dude when you meet him in person by the way! )

the pros training was during the day and closed off to the regular folks and i assume this is standard procedure for many gyms so unless your part of a fighters camp or an elite fighter yourself i doubt anyones claims of regularly sparring with any one above amateur level

[LSWCTN1]

the pros training was during the day and closed off to the regular folks

not secret, closed door, teaching???? must be mcdojo...

[Frost]

yes indeed good point! and this is another way to know who is telling the truth about their training!

while i was there i rarely EVER saw the pros with the exception of duane ludwig and that was because he was doing privates at the time, occasionally i would see carwin but he was usually leaving as i was coming in. ( he is a very small dude when you meet him in person by the way! )

the pros training was during the day and closed off to the regular folks and i assume this is standard procedure for many gyms so unless your part of a fighters camp or an elite fighter yourself i doubt anyones claims of regularly sparring with any one above amateur level

This may be the case in the USA today but not so in all countries. Outside the USA up until a few years ago (before ultimate fighter came along) most pros here in the UK were also working full time jobs, and the talent pool was so small they would travel to each others gyms to train in the evening. Hell some of the gyms over here were still part time up until a few years ago. Having said that most pros here now do the afternoon closed sessions but sometimes attend the technical PM sessions in both grappling and MMA as a warm down.