The Key

[Ultimatewingchun]

"But honest question because I really don't know: does that leg lift as the first move exist in any other MYJ form? Is it possible the movement could have been added in then? (Van)
.............................

***I assume you mean any other wing chun system/lineage. Not really sure, but I think that HFY might have it in a form as well - because I know that they use the move. Perhaps duende or JPofAZ might want to answer that.

[anerlich]

I think the implication is that if someone makes up **** for groundwork, then its likely they're making up **** for their standup as well. A person with no integrity (in terms of actual skill in a specified area) and a huge ego isn't going to segment what they decide to lie about in terms of knowledge. So the logic is--if x person is obviously teaching made up and/or unproven grappling techniques--then that makes everything x person teaches suspect.

Jeez. Really? Thanks SO MUCH for pointing that out!

[anerlich]

One of the things that sticks out most when reading this thread is the ability of some without
any experience or grasp of the facts and at times no history or background of the situation
or the key individuals involved who then try and convey an opinion as if it and they
were well informed.

Oh, come on. If the expression of uninformed opinions stopped, the forum would have no traffic whatsoever.

[canglong]

Oh, come on. If the expression of uninformed opinions stopped, the forum would have no traffic whatsoever.

ok ok you have a valid point but as I am sure you are aware my point focuses on the more scrupulous character trying to pass opinion off as something more than opinion and not just that but they do it on a regular basis with little regard for fact or truth.

[JPinAZ]

"But honest question because I really don't know: does that leg lift as the first move exist in any other MYJ form? Is it possible the movement could have been added in then? (Van)
.............................

***I assume you mean any other wing chun system/lineage. Not really sure, but I think that HFY might have it in a form as well - because I know that they use the move. Perhaps duende or JPofAZ might want to answer that.

Sure thing, I will give you a more detailed answer in the morning when my head's less fuzzy.

[YungChun]

Who cares where things come from...?

Do they work?

Are they consistent with sound tactics and are they a part of (fit in) with what is Chun?

Personally, I think any move where someone says "Always do this first" is a bit goofy..

But I don't think anyone is claiming to have invented any of this stuff and I personally will use anything from anywhere that I think is useful...

[JPinAZ]

Here's the best MT fighter alive today sparring with people at seminar

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_hhIGfMqfUQ

From another thread. Interestingly, look at the move at 4:22, look familiar?

[SAAMAG]

From another thread. Interestingly, look at the move at 4:22, look familiar?

It looks like he jumped forward. It's not a pronounced raised knee at stomach level go-to entry move that is meant to fake out the other guy so that he can use wing chun punches. Saenchen was hoping around and switching feet and cutting off the ring all over the place, it was him just naturally messing around like he always does.

Jesus. That's like saying Vitor used the wing chun chain punch. You guys are too much--trying to validate "wing chun" moves through other arts. Validate it on it's own merit.

[sanjuro_ronin]

From another thread. Interestingly, look at the move at 4:22, look familiar?

LMAO !!!, nice one, great clip too.

[JPinAZ]

It looks like he jumped forward. It's not a pronounced raised knee at stomach level go-to entry move that is meant to fake out the other guy so that he can use wing chun punches. Saenchen was hoping around and switching feet and cutting off the ring all over the place, it was him just naturally messing around like he always does.

Jesus. That's like saying Vitor used the wing chun chain punch. You guys are too much--trying to validate "wing chun" moves through other arts. Validate it on it's own merit.

Wow, it wasn't meant to prove or validate anything, just thought it was interesting. you probably need to chill out a bit, I think you're geting cranky in the last month or 2 with the new direction/tone of your posts.

[SAAMAG]

Wow, it wasn't meant to prove or validate anything, just thought it was interesting. you probably need to chill out a bit, I think you're geting cranky in the last month or 2 with the new direction/tone of your posts.

It's not crankiness. It's weariness from all the b.s. conversations that continue to happen...the theorists, the arguments about how each person knows more than the other, the talk of 2 degrees of hip movement, the validating of wing chun through other non-wing chun fighter's accomplishments, the complete and utter denial of certain realities within the realm of wing chun, the complete and utter ignorance of "master's" actual worth, and a whole other gambit of b.s.

If some of you all actually trained the way you said you do...none of the b.s. would happen. You wouldn't worry about which theories are more correct than others--you'd know because you tested them. You wouldn't revere or defend said master's techniques, because you'd know they were B.S. to begin with. You wouldn't have 30 page long threads about moronic nonsense because you would be worrying more about training.

That's why on some of my posts I seem to get cranky. Because this used to be a place of learning....now it's just a bunch of jerk-offs (minus a few) who do nothing more than pay lip service to something they probably don't even physically do anymore...and that's fighting.

What happens you get a bunch of guys talking about fighting who don't fight? 40 pages of nonsense.

I remember a long time ago when I took up muay thai with a different coach. The majority of recent past training was Gung Fu...I remember him saying to cover and punch....so I asked what kind of punch? There's blah blah blah blah punches....and my coach says "Just hit him! Don't make things overly complicated...just hit him!"

That's what I feel like right now reading all of this crap.

[m1k3]

Vankuen, (m1k3 stands and begins to applaud)

[JPinAZ]

"But honest question because I really don't know: does that leg lift as the first move exist in any other MYJ form? Is it possible the movement could have been added in then? (Van)
.............................

***I assume you mean any other wing chun system/lineage. Not really sure, but I think that HFY might have it in a form as well - because I know that they use the move. Perhaps duende or JPofAZ might want to answer that.

Yes, the leg lift does exist in the opening first few moves in the HFY dummy as well. But, I the focus and intent is different from what I've seen/read of the TWC Entry Technique.

In HFY, this move is based on precise measurements and principles/concepts – as is every move, they are done for a reason and with purpose. Otherwise, they should be thrown our imo. Now, before we even start the actual dummy form, we set-up and measure our distance from the MYJ in reference to our ½ point kiu sau concept (arms extended, finger tips just touching the ends of the arms on the dummy). To keep is simple, the half point kiu sau concept is the half point distance between me and my opponent on which we engage using our kiu sau. Looking at TWC's start of the dummy, they are much further away, which would violate this idea

As seen in TWC, we also open our footwork and clear our gates before moving forward, similar to what is seen in TWC. Along with setting up our ½ point concept in relation to the jong, this precise distance and facing also is in line with our centerline ('A-to-B' centerline) and Bai Jong facing concepts. From this perspective, the TWC starting distance being further out would be more akin to our wandering/fau kiu timeframe as the 'A' point in the A-to-B centerline is not set, but floating.

Looking at the next 'key' move (or entry), the 'hop in' is somewhat similar in looks between both. But again, I feel is is also quite different in principle/theory. Yes, we also raise the knee to cover/check the lower gate and this knee motion does assist in moving forward, which is representative of our Buhn Yut Ma footwork. Again I think the difference here between HFY and TWC would be the range/distance covered. From what I see of TWC, there is more of a launch, or 'jump', to make up the extra distance upon entry. HFY does not use this jump, as our range considerations do not make it necessary
(FWIW I do believe a hop/lifting of the knee is essential to this movement forward, and is seen in many martial arts other than just these 2 WC lineages. Not sure why all the fuss over this)

Besides distance, the shapes and tools are also different. From my understanding of TWC, they use a biu sau hand structure when entering on their opponent. HFY does not use a biu sau, nor do we really consider this an 'entry technique' (but it can be used as such). For HFY, this movement is more about our kiu sau engagement, and typically is in reaction to our opponent closing the distance from B-to-A along the centerline - but not specifically in every case. For us, we engage our opponent (in this case, the dummy) using whole-body jong structure, with both proper time and space considerations. The hand shape is more of a spearing jong sau without any flying elbow. As such, the structure follows our wing chun formula (sup ming dim), along with our tin yan die/heaven human earth concepts. This allows us to safely bridge with our opponent using the strongest possible structure. While they both have precise facing and alignment, TWC uses this movement to cover a greater distance safely with which to 'enter in' on their opponent, while HFY's focus is more on how we can engage with our opponent along the A-B centerline from a precise distance using ½ point kiu sau concepts. Not to take anything away from TWC, as I believe they are both effective in their given application, from a HFY perspective, we typically wouldn't engage from the distance they start.

Once engagement has been made on the half point, the next move on the dummy is where we move from the inside to the outside. In application, this would only be done depending on the energies found on the bridge. If the energy could not be neutralized (whether the opponent is too strong, the timing incorrect, or basically, the structure is overcome for whatever reason) we would then use faat sau to get to the outside and then reestablish our facing, structure and time/space considerations using jong structure, heaven/human/earth, box theories, etc.

Yeah, I am sure I will get some flak for all the jargon But, without mentioning the key concepts and principles, I would just be talking technique. While I do feel even the techniques and applications differ, I think both systems share a lot of commonalities, and both have a lot to offer in terms of fighting and system logic. And, I wouldn't be doing either system any justice to compare them by just the general shapes and movements alone. I am sure, as in HFY, TWC has more behind why and how they do what they do than just general shapes

Jonathan

[sanjuro_ronin]

Van, you need to take a break from the WC forums, try the other ones, it will be good for you to discuss MA without 126 people saying that the fist must be turned 132 degrees and another 132 people saying that it must be 124 degrees AND the little toe must be point east !

[JPinAZ]

It's not crankiness. It's weariness from all the b.s...... [snip]

If some of you all actually trained the way you said you do...none of the b.s. would happen. You wouldn't worry about which theories are more correct than others--you'd know because you tested them. You wouldn't revere or defend said master's techniques, because you'd know they were B.S. to begin with. You wouldn't have 30 page long threads about moronic nonsense because you would be worrying more about training.

That's why on some of my posts I seem to get cranky.... [snip]

That's what I feel like right now reading all of this crap.

You have no idea how or what I train. You don't know if I fight or not. So, before you lump all of us ('you') together, know your facts. If you are weary of all the 'bs', then jumping to conclusions and snap judgments isn't going to help. And, if you're weary, take a nap, or go get some excersize. Or stop reading things that make you tired

If you don't like 30 pages of what you call 'nonsense', why continue to contribute to it with more of the same? If you see in my above post, I am trying to add constructive dialog and sharing information based on my experiences. Besides what is coming across as whining and complaining, where's yours?