The Key

[Wayfaring]

When you start seeing your WCK instructor as different than a tennis coach or a golf pro -- someone you pay to help you with your game -- I think you have some problems.

Hmmmm.

Wing chun instructor....


Tennis coach....


Sounds like I must have some problems.

[duende]

I was addressing Robert, not you. The organ grinder rather than the monkey.

A WCK instructor like a tennis coach?

I can see T as a tennis kid, relentlessly insulting and abusing the other kids' coaches. Until one of them called him on it, challenging him to 5 sets. In an amazing coincidence, T disappears from the courts for a while, returning a while later claiming he had to get his racket restrung. No one believed him then, either.

Respect is not hero worship. I mentioned respect in terms of

to show regard or consideration for: to respect someone's rights.
to refrain from intruding upon or interfering with: to respect a person's privacy

or more specifically where Robert Chu, WSL, William Cheung, Garrett Gee, Rick Spain, other people on the forum and me are concerned:

deference to a right, privilege, privileged position, or someone or something considered to have certain rights or privileges; proper acceptance or courtesy; acknowledgment

Something T lost on this forum a long time ago due to his own actions, and will never get back.

+1

be careful though... They'll soon deem that respect is actually a bad thing along with other out-dated attributes of Kung Fu Culture.

[MaikuB]

Not that there's anything wrong with that.

Good old Seinfeld

[chusauli]

I was addressing Robert, not you. The organ grinder rather than the monkey.

A WCK instructor like a tennis coach?

I can see T as a tennis kid, relentlessly insulting and abusing the other kids' coaches. Until one of them called him on it, challenging him to 5 sets. In an amazing coincidence, T disappears from the courts for a while, returning a while later claiming he had to get his racket restrung. No one believed him then, either.

Respect is not hero worship. I mentioned respect in terms of

to show regard or consideration for: to respect someone's rights.
to refrain from intruding upon or interfering with: to respect a person's privacy

or more specifically where Robert Chu, WSL, William Cheung, Garrett Gee, Rick Spain, other people on the forum and me are concerned:

deference to a right, privilege, privileged position, or someone or something considered to have certain rights or privileges; proper acceptance or courtesy; acknowledgment

Something T lost on this forum a long time ago due to his own actions, and will never get back.

Hi Andrew,

I saw your response. Personally, I don't like the trash talk or giving of nicknames. I also think if you give respect, you get respect, too. I think respect is very important in TCMA and in all martial arts, but in life, too. And unlike Terence, I believe that everyone can fight if they're pushed to it and for all the right reasons. And I believe TCMA have elements in it which are highly effective for self defense, and not everyone has to go into sport fighting.

The sports fight trash talk is part of the entertainment here on this forum. Its a chat forum, so people chat. Basically, its a waste of time, so is idle chit chat. But the common lot of people engage in it. I mainly ignore trash talk and criticism and don't take that seriously.

And I am no organ grinder, nor is T a monkey. I certainly don't control his thoughts or actions. He's a grown man and fully knows the consequences of his actions and speech. I don't condone his nickname giving, or lack of respect of the elders. I have even told him it is in poor taste. But I don't lord over him or anyone. I think T certainly is a nice person in real life and I know him better than any of you that never met him. I think he could be a more effective communicator and polite, but I'm not perfect, and really have no right to tell him off. There are no lessons in my school on how to trash talk other WCK practitioners, despite what people here want to believe. Most of my personal students are professionals, businessmen, police or other - they are the nicest group of people. I often joke that T is a Criminal attorney...

In the USA, people have the right to free speech - maybe its different in other countries. In Ancient China, your tongue was cut out, or you and your family were executed. In Communist China, its not that far off. In Taiwan, there can be serious repercussions about speaking too freely.

But that aside, there are issues with the defenses illustrated, which may draw criticism. I think we should look at that objectively. Perhaps the name calling and discourtesy has gone too far, and the criticism of these examples blind us to inadequacies that were illustrated?

Andrew, you're a great guy, and from our emails and posts, I think you have a great sense of humour and a classy guy. Don't stoop and make me out to be the bad guy on the account of Terence. I would also like to hear your criticism of some of the illustrated defenses, knowing that you have studied BJJ.

[Wayfaring]

Well, the last technique I can see on this thread to even discuss is the TWC entry technique.

Which people give a lot of flak to. Of course bridging the gap to an opponent with respect to distance is one of the most challenging things about WCK IMO. And with the entry technique, the elements that are good are:

1) Upper gate covered - with hand structure
2) Lower gate covered - raised knee
3) Flanking position and angle

Other fighting arts use things like the jab to punch your way in or to angle off - which is a little more of a long range punch than an elbow down WC punch. MT can use leg kicks, body kicks, and the foot jab for bridging.

Wrestlers use the shoot or a clinch for this.

All arts use footwork of some kind or another to deal with this. Some arts are more of the counterpuncher variety where they don't commit to an entry technique directly.

We could probably spin off a thread to talk about entry techniques.

What do all you monkeys think?

[canglong]

I was addressing Robert, not you. The organ grinder rather than the monkey.

lol classic.

I don't like the trash talk or giving of nicknames.

LMAO since when.

I certainly don't control his thoughts or actions.

Maybe if you say it enough times or louder or in different terms people will believe you but it is doubtful.

I think T certainly is a nice person in real life and I know him better than any of you that never met him.

We haven't met Terence because that is the way he likes it and if you don't consider this "real life" why so d@mn defensive both you and Terence can dish it out but nobody and I mean nobody on this board cries foul more than either of you.

Robert all your post sound like condescending scoldings from a parent or a teacher if this board can teach you anything about "real life" maybe it is that you are no better or worse than the people you are communicating with and if you post with that in mind you might be a little bit happier with the responses you receive thereafter and less inclined to bother us with that drivel you just posted.

[anerlich]

Andrew, you're a great guy, and from our emails and posts, I think you have a great sense of humour and a classy guy. Don't stoop and make me out to be the bad guy on the account of Terence. I would also like to hear your criticism of some of the illustrated defenses, knowing that you have studied BJJ.

Robert,

Thank you. My aim was to show that Terence's criticism's of other people and their efforts could equally be applied to what he does, and to almost anyone because they usually aren't based on any logic. While your response to me is gracious, being the subject of ridicule and criticism obviously isn't something you enjoy or regard as fair, and there is a lesson in that which will probably be lost on T.

I'm slowly working through Alan Orr's NHB set, and there is obvious depth and understanding there. Alan seems like an intelligent and gracious student and instructor. He even tips his hat to Matt Furey and Tony Cecchine in the credits! He is a credit to you, unlike some.

I think T certainly is a nice person in real life and I know him better than any of you that never met him.

As he says, we shouldn't blindly listen to others but rely on our own experiences and interactions. Based on those, my opinion differs from yours, and it is that Terence is a coward and an a$$hole to most and a sycophant to a few whose trash talk covers deep insecurities and a generous portion of self loathing.

Opinions vary.

lol classic.

Wish I could say it was mine. The first I heard it was when Australian Labor politician Fred Daley responded to then treasurer John Howard when he got up to answer a question directed to then PM Malcolm Fraser in Australian Parliament 30 odd years ago. And it may of course predate him.

[anerlich]

I would also like to hear your criticism of some of the illustrated defenses, knowing that you have studied BJJ.

The thread, when it started back in the Pleistocene era, was about breaking structure. In BJJ, tactics are often discussed in terms of "getting posture" or "breaking the other guy's posture". Also about aligning the spine and other body parts for maximum leverage, or loading the spine through alignment to achieve a certain result. Or to put the opponent's body in the opposite state so his options and leverage are limited.

[chusauli]

Thanks Andrew, but I meant Master Cheung's defense against the single leg takedown, and groundfighting defense against the mount...

[t_niehoff]

Well, the last technique I can see on this thread to even discuss is the TWC entry technique.

Which people give a lot of flak to. Of course bridging the gap to an opponent with respect to distance is one of the most challenging things about WCK IMO.

To start off, why are we "bridging the gap" in the first place? What does that (bridging the gap) even mean?

It seems many people think it means to step into striking distance. If that's all it is, that's remarkably easy.

And with the entry technique, the elements that are good are:

1) Upper gate covered - with hand structure
2) Lower gate covered - raised knee
3) Flanking position and angle

None of that is "good" -- it's nonsense. You are stepping - or hopping - into his striking range with a purely defensive action. If you penetrate into his range, it HAS to be with an offensive action. Not only that, but you are lifting one of your legs to do it, asking to be taken down.

Other fighting arts use things like the jab to punch your way in or to angle off - which is a little more of a long range punch than an elbow down WC punch. MT can use leg kicks, body kicks, and the foot jab for bridging.

Wrestlers use the shoot or a clinch for this.

What "bridging the gap" refers to is getting to the inside (contact), moving safely from the outside to the inside.

All arts use footwork of some kind or another to deal with this. Some arts are more of the counterpuncher variety where they don't commit to an entry technique directly.

Of course footwork is involved since you are moving your body from one place to another.

WCK doesn't have an "entry technique". The whole concept of an "entry technique" makes no sense. How we get in depends on what our opponent gives us, and relies mainly on timing.

We could probably spin off a thread to talk about entry techniques.

What do all you monkeys think?

Do you really think the monkeys are actually USING their entry techniques in fighting?

[Wayfaring]

To start off, why are we "bridging the gap" in the first place? What does that (bridging the gap) even mean?

It seems many people think it means to step into striking distance. If that's all it is, that's remarkably easy.

I think getting into range effectively is what most mean. It's easy but it's hard. Easy to do, hard to do right.

None of that is "good" -- it's nonsense. You are stepping - or hopping - into his striking range with a purely defensive action. If you penetrate into his range, it HAS to be with an offensive action. Not only that, but you are lifting one of your legs to do it, asking to be taken down.

You have a point and there's a lot to be said for bridging with a jab or leg kick. They would have to be moving backwards for it not to expose a single leg for a takedown.

What "bridging the gap" refers to is getting to the inside (contact), moving safely from the outside to the inside.

agree.

Of course footwork is involved since you are moving your body from one place to another.

the distinction in footwork would be proper movement and timing.

WCK doesn't have an "entry technique". The whole concept of an "entry technique" makes no sense. How we get in depends on what our opponent gives us, and relies mainly on timing.

well, many opponents will sit back in a defensive posture and not give you anything. what do you do? taunt them? dance? or try to put together an offensive game plan for bridging the gap?

Do you really think the monkeys are actually USING their entry techniques in fighting?

Don't know exactly. I'm pretty sure they're not taking fights, as we'd see video. Not sure of how they spar exactly or levels.

[t_niehoff]

I was addressing Robert, not you. The organ grinder rather than the monkey.

A WCK instructor like a tennis coach?

I can see T as a tennis kid, relentlessly insulting and abusing the other kids' coaches. Until one of them called him on it, challenging him to 5 sets. In an amazing coincidence, T disappears from the courts for a while, returning a while later claiming he had to get his racket restrung. No one believed him then, either.

The point is that why do we give some special deference (your so-called "respect") to these WCK instructors who obviously have very little genuine skill? Would you do that to a tennis coach? Of course not. You have a different standard when it comes to your WCK instructors. Why?

Sure, they know the WCK curriculum, and they were teaching it when very little of WCK was known. Yes, we should be thankful for that. But they also took advantage -- in many ways that were and continue to be dishonest -- of that situation to their own ends.

This is a forum. It is not a big part of my life. I come and go as I please. And I don't take anything here seriously: it's only an internet forum. I don't know about any challenges (I don't read every post on the forum, and the only one I know of was a recent one I got via private email where I was asked to pay my own way to my beating! LOL!). If I did, I wouldn't take them seriously. Internet challenges, particularly involving middle-aged or senior citizens (will Medicare cover their injuries, I wonder?), are not to be taken seriously. And are only issued by people who IMO have something wrong with them. I have never claimed to be that good or to be an authority or anything else -- only to be a WCK practitioner. I only tell you guys that you aren't that good. That's what really p1sses you off. As I tell everyone, if they really want to show everyone how good they are, just take a video recorder down to the local MMA school and spar with the white belts -- then they can show the world how they got spanked.

Respect is not hero worship. I mentioned respect in terms of

to show regard or consideration for: to respect someone's rights.
to refrain from intruding upon or interfering with: to respect a person's privacy

or more specifically where Robert Chu, WSL, William Cheung, Garrett Gee, Rick Spain, other people on the forum and me are concerned:

deference to a right, privilege, privileged position, or someone or something considered to have certain rights or privileges; proper acceptance or courtesy; acknowledgment

Tell me, what makes you believe these people are above criticism or reproach? Cheung, for example, PUTS HIMSELF OUT THERE. He claims to be a grandmaster, he used to claim to be the world's #1 WCK fighter (until after the Boztepe incident), he puts up dumb-ass videos of stuff that won't work, he takes money for it (yes, people paid to learn the judo chop defense against the single leg), etc. Look at what he did to your own sifu. I should respect him and show him deference? Why?

Do you think we should also respect and defer to snake-oil salesman too?

Something T lost on this forum a long time ago due to his own actions, and will never get back.

Yes, I expect many of the faithful, like you, don't like me or my views or my attitudes. That's the nature of faith.

[t_niehoff]

I think getting into range effectively is what most mean. It's easy but it's hard. Easy to do, hard to do right.

Like everything else.

You have a point and there's a lot to be said for bridging with a jab or leg kick. They would have to be moving backwards for it not to expose a single leg for a takedown.

It's timing.

well, many opponents will sit back in a defensive posture and not give you anything. what do you do? taunt them? dance? or try to put together an offensive game plan for bridging the gap?

If they sit back in a defensive posture, they are giving you something. What ever they do gives you something. The question is do you know how to take advantage of it or not.

[goju]

Do you think we should also respect and defer to snake-oil salesman too?.

no we should instead respect and listen to a 50 something whos never fought or named his trainers and cowers away form any sort of friendly meet up

you only attack cheung because victor and anerlich got your bloomers in twist and this shows what a petty little girl you are

[anerlich]

Thanks Andrew, but I meant Master Cheung's defense against the single leg takedown, and groundfighting defense against the mount...

Sorry, bit hard to tell on this thread with so many swings, roundabouts, and tennis courts.

They might work against someone who is unco, and totally clueless about groundfighting or wrestling. But then, just about anything will.

This sort of thing happens in non-TMA's like BJJ as well. A guy will show you some weird-a$$ mount escape, and then says, "but this will only work if the guy isn't any good".

But ... the guy got mount on you. Or he managed to clinch and grab a leg. So he is probably better than you. So your weird-a$$ escape will almost certainly fail, or maybe work just once because of the surprise factor.

Wing Chun works in the areas it is designed for. But those areas do not include shoot counters or groundfighting.