The Key

[Niersun]

Robert's structure tests are just a way to help beginners find how to use their body.

The practice draws from function: how can I use my body successfully while attached fighting? In that situation, your opponent will be pressing you, pulling you, jerking you, etc. trying to break your structure. So, you need your body to be able to instantly adjust to those forces and maintain its integrity while at the same time be able to successfully strike, pull, press, push, jerk, lift, etc, him using your body (and not localized muscle). That's WCK body structure in a nutshell.

See i was right about your attached fighting/grappling theory. Larping an arm and striking.

Now, i know that we have our differences, but if you take the time to develop your contact relexes and practice exchange steps in your chi sao, you might have an edge over your current WC training partners that try to attach them selves to your arm and take away your structure.

[Matrix]

What a D**k head statement. I never say anything negative about Hawkins. Also, if you think you have the goods I'd like to see it.

Phil,
Don't take the bait. Trash talk is just trash. Don't even make the effort to pick it up. It's not worth it.

[Niersun]

Try to do simple chi sao by not looking. You will see that your relexes will start to increase. Your WC training partner will find it more harder to larp you as you simply exchange step and bil sao and do larger huen sao's to attack his elbow, etc, etc.

It appears your blind hatred towards GM William Cheung (for reasons only known to you) has robbed you of some good training methods. Its a shame.

[Niersun]

Of course not. As I have repeatedly (as I am often reminded) said, WCK is controlling WHILE striking -- it is not, like some knuckleheads keep misrepresenting, standing grappling. It is pushing, pulling, pressing, lifting, sinking, etc. WHILE you strike. The striking is continually going on. But the objective is not just to strike, it is to keep hi structure broken so that we can continue to strike in safety.

I think someone has multiple personalities.

You say its GRAPPLING, now you say its NOT. Now your using the term CONTROLLING.

[Niersun]

Okay. It appears that i cannot read.

I see the word grappling and i immediately assume, stand up wrestling and dont pay attention to what else is written.

If Terrence initially meant to grab and control an arm and strike simultaneously taking away the opponents balance by pulling him through their own centreline, etc, then yes that is a WC tactic and is used by WC fighters when the opportunity arises.

That tactic wont always work though.

[Knifefighter]

Every Wing Chun lineage larp sao's an opponents arm, controlling the arm and attacks. This is something most beginners pick up when doing random chi sao.

Breaking an opponents structure is nothing new. TWC teaches this in the BOEC, where you attack your opponents lead elbow and controlling it, therefore controlling his structure.

Reinventing the wheel and trying to come out all wise are you.

Too bad lop sao doesn't work against an actual resisting opponent who is halfway skilled.

[Ultimatewingchun]

I think someone has multiple personalities.

You say its GRAPPLING, now you say its NOT. Now your using the term CONTROLLING.

***GET USED TO THAT, Niersun. He does it all the time. He puts something out there as "gospel" - and then when the flaws in what he says are exposed - he goes in a very different direction while trying to make believe he never said what in fact he did say previously.

The guy is a fraud.

BUT A CLEVER ONE....for example, his use of the term "attached" fighting...HE CLEARLY meant in his original numerous posts on this that he was talking about clinch fighting/grappling as a big part of his definition...

but now...well...he's just talking CONTROLLING people with things like lop sao and some other wing chun moves.

Yeah, riiiiiiiiiiight.

BECAUSE: myself and other people kept arguing with him post-after-post that while wing chun uses such "controlling" bridge work as a means to achieve it's main strategey - hitting people - he kept saying nooooooooooooooo...

BUT NOW LOOK WHAT HE'S SAYING.

The guy is a douche bag.

[Vajramusti]

There are major differences among lineages regrading the details in the dynamics of lap sao and its uses. It is not just about controlling arms in usage.
And frequent non wing chun trolling posters know even less about the proper use of lop sao.

joy chaudhuri

[t_niehoff]

What a D**k head statement. I never say anything negative about Hawkins. Also, if you think you have the goods I'd like to see it.

TWC is Cheung's curriculum (that he created) for teaching WCK.

Does TWC -- Cheung's curriculum -- have the kuen kuit?

No.

Is the kuen kuit a part of the WCK core curriculum?

Yes. The same core kuen kuit are in YKS, YM, Gu Lao, etc.

So why does TWC lack the kuen kuit?

Well, either Cheung didn't learn it or if he did, he doesn't think it worthwhile teaching -- which indicates to me that he doesn't appreciate their significance.

Who is Cheung but some guy who teaches WCK for a living -- he's nothing special. Neither is Hawkins, neither are any of these guys. These are just guys who have learned the WCK curriculum or portions of the WCK curriculum.

Attachment to lineage only holds you back since then you are not looking at the broader art but only one person's way of teaching it.

[Knifefighter]

There are major differences among lineages regrading the details in the dynamics of lap sao and its uses. It is not just about controlling arms in usage.
And frequent non wing chun trolling posters know even less about the proper use of lop sao.

joy chaudhuri

Methinks self-proclaimed WC "experts" know even less about the mysterious lop sao. Like the believers in the Loc Ness monster, they make lots of claims for it, but have never actually produced any evidence of it working in full-contact settings.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Lop sao is best used as a GUIDING HAND along with a short, quick, slight pull across - rather than as a full blown GRAB and pull across...

the shorter and quicker the movements while using lop - and without ATTACHING yourself to the opponent with a big grabbing motion - the more likely it will succeed as a controlling bridge move - when you're looking to either punch with the other hand or possibly the same hand after quickly releasing the lop.

The only times an actual grab and pull across works is if the opponent is already compromised in some way - and then the lop can further unbalance him and set him up for other things.

And the extent to which (any version of lop sao) can actually be used against a skilled, resisting opponent should not be overestimated. You can get it occasionally - but it is not a primary move like out-and-out punching is, for example.

[t_niehoff]

***GET USED TO THAT, Niersun. He does it all the time. He puts something out there as "gospel" - and then when the flaws in what he says are exposed - he goes in a very different direction while trying to make believe he never said what in fact he did say previously.

The guy is a fraud.

Well, except that I'm not doing that.

BUT A CLEVER ONE....for example, his use of the term "attached" fighting...HE CLEARLY meant in his original numerous posts on this that he was talking about clinch fighting/grappling as a big part of his definition...

And I haven't changed in what I'm saying. WCK's approach to fighting is to control while striking. That control requires an attachment, sustained contact to give us a "handle" from which to push, pull, jerk, etc. so to break your opponent's structure and keep it broken. You can do this through his limbs or his body. It is clinch fighting -- but clinching similar to what you see in dirty boxing or MT, as opposed to the body lock stuff of greco.

but now...well...he's just talking CONTROLLING people with things like lop sao and some other wing chun moves.

I was ALWAYS talking about doing it through WCK movement alone. Lop sao means grabbing hand -- to grab something with your hand. Grabbing is one way of getting an attachment (sot aht you can push, pull, etc. to break his structure).

Yeah, riiiiiiiiiiight.

BECAUSE: myself and other people kept arguing with him post-after-post that while wing chun uses such "controlling" bridge work as a means to achieve it's main strategey - hitting people - he kept saying nooooooooooooooo...

BUT NOW LOOK WHAT HE'S SAYING.

Yes, I'M SAYING WHAT I'VE BEEN SAYING -- WCK'S METHOD IS TO CONTROL WHILE STRIKING. GO BACK AND READ MY POSTS. CONTROL WHILE STRIKING. The bridge is our connection to the opponent, it is what gives us a handle to allow us to push, pull,etc.

Hitting someone isn't a "strategy". Strategy is your plan, how you are going to approach the fight. WCK's faat mun provides a strategy that permits us to strike the opponent while being safe, that strategy is to join (daap), close them down (jeet), break their structure (chum), then deliver our weapons (biu), all the while maintaining flexible attachment (chi). While these may appear as sequential, often they overlap -- ideally you want to daap, jeet, chum in one action (to break an opponent's structure on contact).

The guy is a douche bag.

Pot calling the kettle black.

[Knifefighter]

Here is a clip of Phil demonstrating a pak/lop.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jt3rOtqnnDk

In the lop sao, he is clearly grabbing the arm an pulling it (this is what I would consider the WC lop soa).

1- Is that the WC lap sao?

2- If so, can anyone please show some evidence of people actually using it in full-contact situations?

[t_niehoff]

Lop sao translates to "grabbing hand" -- any time you grab your opponent, you are performing a lop sao. The drill 'lop sao' uses a grabbing hand but that isn't the only way to use a grabbing hand. If, for example, I grab your lapel and pull you, that is a lop sao. All the grab does is provide an attachment (solid connection). Lop sao is an action, not a technique.

[Ultimatewingchun]

About Phil Redmond's vid:

I know from experience that the lop on the rear cross from the inside will not work against a skilled, resisting opponent (ie.- a good boxer). You can block with that arm/hand if the cross comes - but getting an actual lop is not something to count on against the rear cross.

But the lop work that Phil does in that vid against the lead hand punch that came at him can work...

although more often than not a good fighter will be retracting that arm naturally (or after he realizes he's being countered) - at which point in TWC you're taught to release the lop and pressure his lead elbow with your other hand with gum sao, (ie.- it looks something like pak but is more akin to a straight-arm in football - although without fully locking out the elbow of your gum hand)...

and pressure it by moving in closer as well - while you're doing it...and then almost immediately seek to hit him with the hand that originally did the lop sao.