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Thread: The Key

  1. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by t_niehoff View Post
    Lop sao translates to "grabbing hand" -- any time you grab your opponent, you are performing a lop sao. The drill 'lop sao' uses a grabbing hand but that isn't the only way to use a grabbing hand. If, for example, I grab your lapel and pull you, that is a lop sao. All the grab does is provide an attachment (solid connection). Lop sao is an action, not a technique.
    Lop sao is taught as a grab on the opponent's arm with the hand pronated into an external rotation. This is the lap sao I am talking about.

    I don't think there is anything taught in WC about grabbing clothing, but please point me to the techniques in the system that do that.

  2. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Ultimatewingchun View Post

    although more often than not a good fighter will be retracting that arm naturally (or after he realizes he's being countered) - at which point in TWC you're taught to release the lop and pressure his lead elbow with your other hand with gum sao,
    Which means it didn't work.

    Thank you.
    Last edited by Knifefighter; 05-27-2010 at 09:37 AM.

  3. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knifefighter View Post
    Lop sao is taught as a grab on the opponent's arm with the hand pronated into an external rotation. This is the lap sao I am talking about.

    I don't think there is anything taught in WC about grabbing clothing, but please point me to the techniques in the system that do that.
    I know what lop sao you are talking about. And what I am saying is that is an example of a lop (grabbing) hand, not THE lop sao.

    In WCK, we use grabbing as a means of getting attachment to the opponent (so that we can break his structure), so we grab the neck, the arm (upper and lower), whatever we can that will give us a handle. There is nothing that prohibits grabbing anything, clothing or whatever.

  4. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by t_niehoff View Post
    I know what lop sao you are talking about. And what I am saying is that is an example of a lop (grabbing) hand, not THE lop sao.

    In WCK, we use grabbing as a means of getting attachment to the opponent (so that we can break his structure), so we grab the neck, the arm (upper and lower), whatever we can that will give us a handle. There is nothing that prohibits grabbing anything, clothing or whatever.
    In that case, somebody developing the system forgot to figure out the fact that some forms of grabbing don't work so well.

  5. #50
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    Grabbing leads to grabbing and grabbing leads to grappling, so unless that is your aim, try to avoid it.
    Psalms 144:1
    Praise be my Lord my Rock,
    He trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle !

  6. #51
    Which is why I made the distinction between a short, quick GUIDING lop and a full blown GRAB.

  7. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Ultimatewingchun View Post
    Which is why I made the distinction between a short, quick GUIDING lop and a full blown GRAB.
    Please provide some evidence for that type of lop sao working in a full contact environment.

  8. #53
    This is not a full contact environment - and it's a different application of lop sao (ie.- it's not against a straight punch in these vids)...

    but it is something that has worked for me on occasions while sparring full contact.

    And again, it's a very quick but not a committed grab - but rather...

    it's a short grabbing and pull across but mostly guiding rather than fully grabbing motion that I'm expecting to have to release and go into something else very soon thereafter.

    Part one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z1d1OyedoDE


    Part two: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S7rdD...eature=related

    Also notice that in the vid I refer to it as a "block"...because this is actually a combo of bil sao and lop sao together as one whole quick movement.

    And also, apologies for the "aspect ratio" being off in the second vid. My partner and I look a bit distorted because of it.
    Last edited by Ultimatewingchun; 05-27-2010 at 10:39 AM.

  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knifefighter View Post
    Please provide some evidence for that type of lop sao working in a full contact environment.
    Not all attacks are done by skilled fighters in a contest environment.. Any opponent who leaves an arm out there, reaches to grab, clashes with force, etc, could be lopped...

    And the lop can be in combination with a forward chopping parry or attachment attempt.. As you lop you may wish to strike with the other hand as you break their balance or you might want to simply (arm drag?) pull them into a wall..or onto the ground.. Grabbing is basic part of what people do to each other (HAOV) and naturally Chun deals with this aspect of human attacking actions, both by using grabbing and in dealing with incoming limbs..
    Last edited by YungChun; 05-27-2010 at 10:37 AM.
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  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by YungChun View Post
    Not all attacks are done by skilled fighters in a contest environment.. Any opponent who leaves an arm out there, reaches to grab, clashes with force, etc, could be lopped...

    And the lop can be in combination with a forward chopping parry or attachment attempt.. Once lopped you may wish to strike with the other hand as you break their balance or you might want to simply (arm drag?) pull them into a wall..or onto the ground.. Grabbing is part of what people do to each other and naturally Chun deals with this aspect of human attacking actions, both by using grabbing and in dealing with incoming limbs..
    I think that Dale's issue MAY be using Lop VS a strike.
    Vs a grab I can see that, but trying to "grab" a strike is, well, tricky at best.
    I mean, Aikido guys drill that ALL the time and rarely pull it off and prefer to do it VS a grab.
    Psalms 144:1
    Praise be my Lord my Rock,
    He trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle !

  11. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by YungChun View Post
    Not all attacks are done by skilled fighters in a contest environment.. Any opponent who leaves an arm out there, reaches to grab, clashes with force, etc, could be lopped...
    Thats' great... a system that teaches things that only work against scrubs.


    And the lop can be in combination with a forward chopping parry or attachment attempt.. As you lop you may wish to strike with the other hand as you break their balance or you might want to simply (arm drag?) pull them into a wall..or onto the ground.. Grabbing is basic part of what people do to each other (HAOV) and naturally Chun deals with this aspect of human attacking actions, both by using grabbing and in dealing with incoming limbs..
    Arm drags and lop saos are completely different biomechancally. Arm drags work, lop saos don't. There are sound biomechanical reasons for this.

    But, again, I'm willing to be shown that I'm wrong. Please point to some evidence of lap saos being used against full resisting oppoents.

  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by sanjuro_ronin View Post
    I think that Dale's issue MAY be using Lop VS a strike.
    Vs a grab I can see that, but trying to "grab" a strike is, well, tricky at best.
    I mean, Aikido guys drill that ALL the time and rarely pull it off and prefer to do it VS a grab.
    Moving into them helps but I agree it's low%.. If the opponent is firing off quick strikes no you probably won't get the attachment..or the lop..but it depends on both people and exactly what is happening..

    The classical inside use is when in the clash they cross the line laterally.. It can set up turning them or clearing the line for the counter and/or as you break their balance--the attachment..

    In fighting or sparring decent folks then what I always found was simpler works better.. The cutting punch instead of the lop is higher %.. but doesn't do the same thing a lop can.. Bottom line is either their arm is out there long enough to lop or not, and if not then simply firing your weapon is higher %.
    Jim Hawkins
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  13. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by sanjuro_ronin View Post
    I think that Dale's issue MAY be using Lop VS a strike.
    Vs a grab I can see that, but trying to "grab" a strike is, well, tricky at best.
    I mean, Aikido guys drill that ALL the time and rarely pull it off and prefer to do it VS a grab.
    It doesn't work against grabs either. That's why you never see it in wrestling.

    However, you do bring up a good point. If it doesn't work when you are already grabbing someone, it's even less likely to work when the opponent is striking.

  14. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knifefighter View Post
    Thats' great... a system that teaches things that only work against scrubs.




    Arm drags and lop saos are completely different biomechancally. Arm drags work, lop saos don't. There are sound biomechanical reasons for this.

    But, again, I'm willing to be shown that I'm wrong. Please point to some evidence of lap saos being used against full resisting oppoents.
    Black and white makes for a boring rainbow..

    So you don't think you can convert to an arm drag from a lop?

    The truth is that in human acts of violence folks grab and reach.. Another truth is that violent attacks are not always technically perfect in fight competition terms.. Aside from that and other inside applications arms extend and clash and NOT to include grabbing in Chun wouldn't make any sense.

    Any arm that stays out for too long can be lopped.
    Last edited by YungChun; 05-27-2010 at 10:50 AM.
    Jim Hawkins
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  15. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knifefighter View Post
    It doesn't work against grabs either. That's why you never see it in wrestling.

    However, you do bring up a good point. If it doesn't work when you are already grabbing someone, it's even less likely to work when the opponent is striking.
    Well, I've never tried doing it myself, but I can conceive of it working where a guy tries to grab my beer and I grab his arm and punch him in the face.
    Psalms 144:1
    Praise be my Lord my Rock,
    He trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle !

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