Spaztaztic Southern Mantis (Maybe)?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Fair enough. Although, can you elaborate a bit? What skills do you think need to be produced over a long period of time that cannot be trained in a more optimal way?

Ip, Ib, forging are examples that come to mind.
But I don't think that shorter time = optimal and I think that is what you are saying, yes?

To each their own, its all about objective. Coincidentally, if they have trained the way most boxers train, they dont need to put any additional effort in, its already there.

Most boxers are not into boxing for the "long run", not in a way comparable to MA.

Bottom line, an art is most accurately defined by the collective skills of each person within that art, and their ability to improve.

Yes, but an art is dead it is NOT alive so IT can't be blamed for its lack of effectiveness, can it?

[PlumDragon]

I don't think bjj white belts have any impact on what exactly bjj is. The style is being defined for them, not by them.

Sure thats true, no argument. But when we have many BJJ white belts with 6 months training compared to the skill level and proficiency of many similarly ranked and time-in students of another *similar* art, we should expect to see a direct correlation of the effectiveness of the art--it hints very closely to what the art is capable of accomplishing in 6 months time.

Obviously white belts/sashes of any art do not define the art itself. These people will learn the art as it is passed down from the more competent and more skilled individuals. And, if the individuals passing the art down are largely unskilled, then the art is at a detriment. Sure, it all boils down to the fault of people, its as much our fault that an art is what it is, that it exists, or that it has gone into extinction; and so it goes that we drive what an art is.

If I tell you 1 method of teaching people to type consistently produces 50 wpm with no mistakes after 6 months, but another method only consistently produces 39 wpm with no mistakes after 6 months, are you going to tell me that the 39 wpm "method" is just as good, but that the method isnt being taught correctly or the student doesnt care as much? We can call something an art or method, write some theoretical manual, and set it on a pedastal...But its all irrelevant if the art or system or method turns out something that is consistently less effective, given equivalent training time, etc etc...

Ip, Ib, forging are examples that come to mind.
But I don't think that shorter time = optimal and I think that is what you are saying, yes?

Well, iron palm and iron body are not what I would really consider "skills". They are attribute development. I would imagine this is about all that could be added to the list though, because they have to do with a physiological and metabolic function, not ones ability to become skillful.

Nevertheless, in my opinion, optimal has to do with what produces greatest growth over a given measure of time. I suppose shorter time is optimal, but what Im really referring to is refining a desired skill as efficiently as possible.

Growth in our given pursuit is what we are all looking for; not just now, but always. Certainly, if I am a runner, then getting really good at stuffing hot dogs down my throat is not best suited, and if Im interested in push hands, then formwork doesnt make much sense; that is, its not the best use of time, it doesnt support optimal growth in that objective.

I suppose one viewpoint is that the claim is that TCMA produces a more well-rounded individual with a more philosophical focus? Nevertheless Ive felt as much philosophical growth, if not more, in the FMA that I teach than Ive experienced in the Chinese systems Ive trained. Thats not to say thats the norm, and I dont mean to attack TCMA (because I love it too)...But I hope its enough to illustrate that its not necessarily "optimal" itself in this regard.

So, again I would pose the question: Other than the ip & ib which have already been mentioned, what types of skills require more time to develop, and to add to that: If you dont think that maximum growth in a given measure of time is optimal, then what is your opinion?

Most boxers are not into boxing for the "long run", not in a way comparable to MA.

Be that as it may, it doesnt change the fact that they use their body in an efficient manner that allows them to produce long-lasting results that meet their objective. And the same holds true for soccer players and swimmers and dancers.

Yes, but an art is dead it is NOT alive so IT can't be blamed for its lack of effectiveness, can it?

As I mention above, if you want to place blame, we are the creators and destroyers of all of our own devices and are to "blame". The art just is what it is...and it is only what it is because of what we make it. If the students of X art suck, and the teachers suck, well then it doesnt really matter what kind of ideal or written theoretical tablet the style prescribes to....Because it is defined entirely by the people. That is, its not the arts "fault" and Im not trying to blame something on an art. Im jsut saying, an art is what the practitioners make it...

[sanjuro_ronin]

Well, iron palm and iron body are not what I would really consider "skills". They are attribute development. I would imagine this is about all that could be added to the list though, because they have to do with a physiological and metabolic function, not ones ability to become skillful.

Ah, I understand what you mean now.

So, again I would pose the question: Other than the ip & ib which have already been mentioned, what types of skills require more time to develop, and to add to that: If you dont think that maximum growth in a given measure of time is optimal, then what is your opinion?

There are gross motor skills and fine ones and those that combine both, a punch based on swinging your arm is a gross motor skill and one based on arm swinging with body behind it is more of a "fine" one while a punch with swing, body and "whipping" ( jing) behind it is an even finer one.
And obviously that requires more time and skill and training to develop, I think we can agree on that, right?
Now, HOW MUCH more is dependant on the person, some guys get it quick, others more time.
Now, there are "skills" that require a long tiem to cultivate because rushing them can lead to injury and complications, IP and IB fall here, but also the "forging" process of the PE fist for example.
It takes longer to develop a PE fist than the regular one and rushing it can lead to serious injury.
Do we agree on that too?

What is optimal to me?
Well, honestly, in terms of time it is whatever time is need to develop that skill as quick as possible AND as safe and injury free as possible.
Sometimes that means taking a slower pace than we would like.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Be that as it may, it doesnt change the fact that they use their body in an efficient manner that allows them to produce long-lasting results that meet their objective. And the same holds true for soccer players and swimmers and dancers.

Ah, yes and no.
I would argue with the 'long-lasting" because as I am sure you are aware of too, sports and health don't always go hand in hand, do they?
Competition drives as to be the best at any given moment and NOT to focus that much on the future, sure longevity is A part of it, but not THE part of it.
Soccer players play with injuries, rush treatments, over train and what not, to be more competitive as do boxers, swimmers, gymnast and so forth.
Many times athletes succeed in SPITE of their training habits.
But yes, I agree that sports training is designed to get the best results in the quick amount of time.

[PlumDragon]

There are gross motor skills and fine ones and those that combine both, a punch based on swinging your arm is a gross motor skill and one based on arm swinging with body behind it is more of a "fine" one

I would contend that the process of refining both the gross and fine motor skills as you illustrate takes place over the years, whether we focus on it or not. I also think that training them out of context ends up being largely a waste of time. If you spend the time to develop these types of punches with no pressure from a partner, then you may spend several years getting it jsut right in drills before trying to apply it. Meanwhile, a small few systems put you into pressured situations from day 1 and allow the body to take care of both the gros motor skills at the same time it learns to adapt to the pressure. Then, once the pressure feels more comfortable (in context of the goals at hand), the gross motor skills are already in place and one can spend their time working on the finer details...I believe this is more optimal using yoru definition, whether we are talking about 6 months in to training, or 35 years.

while a punch with swing, body and "whipping" ( jing) behind it is an even finer one. And obviously that requires more time and skill and training to develop, I think we can agree on that, right?

Everything equal, yes, this will require more time than the above. However, thats not to say that varying methods wont produce growth at a faster rates (all the way through ones training) than others.

Now, HOW MUCH more is dependant on the person, some guys get it quick, others more time.

True. But if your goal is to build skill, something that you can access under pressure, then the method you use will govern how quickly, how deeply, and how solidly each individual person can progress.

It takes longer to develop a PE fist than the regular one and rushing it can lead to serious injury. Do we agree on that too?

Yes, generally, Id agree the PE fist takes longer to condition. I know Im nitpicking here and I appreciate you bearing with me, but a side note to that is this: Having spent a few years conditioning the PE fist myself, my first question to people I talk to who train it now is: Why? What do you feel that you get out of it? What advantage do you think it serves? They are rhetorical questions, but there are a lot of reasons I stopped training it, one of which being that I just dont think training the knuckles like that is very good for the long-term, which, if you agree, would go against your definition below of optimal.

What is optimal to me? Well, honestly, in terms of time it is whatever time is need to develop that skill as quick as possible AND as safe and injury free as possible. Sometimes that means taking a slower pace than we would like.

I think that is a very good definition. I like your addition of safety to that...

[PlumDragon]

Ah, yes and no.
I would argue with the 'long-lasting" because as I am sure you are aware of too, sports and health don't always go hand in hand, do they?
Competition drives as to be the best at any given moment and NOT to focus that much on the future, sure longevity is A part of it, but not THE part of it.
Soccer players play with injuries, rush treatments, over train and what not, to be more competitive as do boxers, swimmers, gymnast and so forth.
Many times athletes succeed in SPITE of their training habits.
But yes, I agree that sports training is designed to get the best results in the quick amount of time.

Thats true, no argument there. Coincidentally, I think that PE fist training belongs there too!

[sanjuro_ronin]

Thats true, no argument there. Coincidentally, I think that PE fist training belongs there too!

I think that, the way most train it, I would agree.
But if it is trained and developed like IP, I think it can be forged without many issues.

Having spent a few years conditioning the PE fist myself, my first question to people I talk to who train it now is: Why? What do you feel that you get out of it? What advantage do you think it serves? They are rhetorical questions, but there are a lot of reasons I stopped training it, one of which being that I just dont think training the knuckles like that is very good for the long-term, which, if you agree, would go against your definition below of optimal.

I think that having a "loaded weapon" is a good thing, but not for every body.
Do you think that carrying a kubatan or a "tekko" would be advantageous in a fight?

[KC Elbows]

If I tell you 1 method of teaching people to type consistently produces 50 wpm with no mistakes after 6 months, but another method only consistently produces 39 wpm with no mistakes after 6 months, are you going to tell me that the 39 wpm "method" is just as good, but that the method isnt being taught correctly or the student doesnt care as much? We can call something an art or method, write some theoretical manual, and set it on a pedastal...But its all irrelevant if the art or system or method turns out something that is consistently less effective, given equivalent training time, etc etc...

Good posts. On this point, and here's the rub: given that whoever is being trained is a normal human, it will not take longer to learn A than B, where they are not totally dissimilar in complexity. So the basic punches and kicks from system to system, not too different, same amount of time to ingrain them. So, given that we all agree that the systems don''t approach punching, kicking, throws, and locks in too dissimilar a fashion, if there is a difference in the time it takes to get proficiency, it has nothing to do with those moves, which comprise the styles, but in how they are trained.

So, when you get a guy who does five years of kung fu, leaves it because the methodology doesn't allow the practitioners to approach the style, and goes to something with a more useful methodology(training methodology, which is not related to style as much as culture and history), that person gains a capacity to judge the new style based on effectiveness, but, unless they do the same with the previous style, they do not have that capacity in any real sense. They do have a Fair gripe with the training environment, but the style has never gotten a proper introduction to them.

What kung fu needs, and many are doing the reforms necessary to get, is people training kung fu like fighters, whatever they wish to do with it from there. What kung fu does not need is people who previously never trained it with aliveness making proclomations about it's usefulness, either positive or negative, based on their lack of proper, meaning relevant and alive, training.

I for one do not consider it to require endless training under a teacher to gain competence in kung fu. If one is learning many styles of it, perhaps longer, but each style of open hand can be approached by a competent individual in a reasonable time if they are given the info and the environment to ingrain it. Add weapons and all, and again those will require time for each, but we're talking open hand for the most part.

You can't compare results in ingraining styles between two completely different training approaches and rule out the training methodology as the cause in order to blame the style instead.

[Sam]

U.S. Open Martial Arts Championship James Cama's Hung Ching Students

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Congratulations to my students for their participation in the 2010 U.S. Open Martial Arts Championship at Queens College N.Y. on June 6th.
Ryan Prezioso Advanced Chi Sao Gold 1st, Two Man Form Silver, Southern Short Hand Form Bronze.
James Cama Jr. Advanced Chi Sao Silver, Two Man Form Silver, Advanced Push Hands Silver.
Mathew August Intermediate Chi Sao Gold 1st, Two Man Form Gold 1st.
Ian August Intermediate Chi Sao Silver, Two Man Form Gold 1st.
Alan Sterns Intermediate Chi Sao 36yrs up Gold 1st, Stationary Push Hands Silver.
Dane Smith Begining Chi Sao Gold 1st.
Anthony Fusco age 11 Begining Chi Sao Gold 1st, Push Hands Bronze.
James Cama Sifu C.F.M.A
http://www.youtube.com/view_play_lis...2BE4286D754892
http://www.martialartsview.com/index-106.html

[Lokhopkuen]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aX60tdwPEcc

WTF?

I Don't know what this is either...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NhTkG...eature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ed96yw-EBfk
I've fought tooth and nail with this man the one above seem to lack certain essence IMO.

[sanjuro_ronin]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ed96yw-EBfk

Yeah, I always loved Sifu Manny's stuff.
How's he been doing by the way?

[Dale Dugas]

Thanks Brother,

always good to see Chuka South Mantis.

[Lokhopkuen]

Yeah, I always loved Sifu Manny's stuff.
How's he been doing by the way?

I saw him a few weeks ago. Gained some weight, beating cancer like the rest of us whom pursue daily cultivation routines.

Might be in your necka der woodz soon young man
Ready to do it big?

[sanjuro_ronin]

I saw him a few weeks ago. Gained some weight, beating cancer like the rest of us whom pursue daily cultivation routines.

Might be in your necka der woodz some young man
Ready to do it big?

Yeah, I know what you mean, big time...

Would be awesome to see you, if they let you past customs !
LOL !

[Lokhopkuen]

Yeah, I know what you mean, big time...

Would be awesome to see you, if they let you past customs !
LOL !

I'll throw the gud stuff over the fence, flash my handy dandy US Passport CARD, tap dance passed the Mounties, sidle along the fence for my contraBAND, then sashay by casa de Ronin with some flowerz fo Mizus Ronin an t der gud stuff fo der Master