Spaztaztic Southern Mantis (Maybe)?

[David Jamieson]

some people just dont deserve to be shown anything they come across as such jerks.

I think maybe this is what happened? Someone was being a beligerent self minded person and anotehr person saw that as a character flaw and withheld anything of specialness because of a deserving it issue.

Or it could have also been racism. lol

anyway, op dude, mysterion there. You need to consider all the sides. Maybe you were being a ******* and no one wanted to give you anything because of it? So, you turn around and project your own ******* ways onto thsoe who are denying you something that you don't respect and don't want anyway.

Could be that you are one of those "what's the point" people. there's lots of them. Perfectly capable of being able to learn and practice, but so underdeveloped from a social standpoint that tehy are not worth teaching higher level knowledge or skills too.

as for fighting, anyone can figfht. there's no secrets there.

[Frost]

We live in a society where short term satisfaction and short term gain are the yardsticks by which many measure value. I'm hardly surprised at the pervasiveness of this opinion, its a cultural thing.

or perhaps people have become wise and are no longer fooled by the "it takes 10 years to become good at what we do but then no man can touch you" arguement.

either way it really depends on what you are training for, if its self defence then becoming good in a small amount of time is a good thing, if you are in it for the beauty of the art then you may want to spend years and years perfecting itsall good.

As for TCMA being one of the best chances for life long training going i still argue this is a big maybe (take tai chi out of the equation and the number of middle aged people practising TCMA goes down quite a bit). And likewise the number practising that are still able to actually hold their own in a fight with younger fights is even less.

[TenTigers]

when I first took up guitar, in a few months I could hammer out a decent blues progression, Jumpin Jack Flash and Johnny B. Goode.
A few years later, I could do a simple blues lick, some bends, and trills.
Now, after many years, I can play different types of music. I can fingerpick, I can play slide, from Heavy Metal to Blues. I can improvise and it is a free-flowing expression. I can put feeling into a solo. I can coax sublties from harmonics, overtones, cries and moans, soft as a baby's caress, or biting and hard. This comes from the hands, not the instrument.

I guess if all you want to play is Green Day or the Ramones, learn your three chords and rock out.

Most teenagers aren't into the Blues. To ask a teen to come to a Blues Jam and sit through an evening of song after song of the same 12 bar blues and variations of such is torture.

don't even mention jazz...

[TenTigers]

or perhaps people have become wise and are no longer fooled by the "it takes 10 years to become good at what we do but then no man can touch you" arguement.
.

My teacher puts it this way;
"Will training in my style make you unstoppable? No.
Will it make you better than anyone else? No.
What I have is a specific set of skills.
Whether you choose to learn it or not is up to you."

I chose to learn it.

[PlumDragon]

I dont have the time tokeep replying to everything, Im probably going to become more scarce in this thread. If anyone wants to continue the conversation with me, just ping me and Ill see what I can do...

Please bear with me, I make no contention that ONLY TCMA provides longevity exercise, only that it is a particularly good option, intellectually stimulating and that it allows a continuum of training from youth to old age.

Certainly happy to bear with ya and be civil!

As for TCMA being a great option for stimulation mentally and physically into old age, etc etc...Perhaps the real issue here as that many of the things in TCMA arent martial art at all but rather come from "health" modalities. ie, people consider qigong as "martial art", but really is just Chinese health practice...TCMA isnt just a martil art, its a whole cultural lifestyle...

I would like to stress again that I love TCMA. I love the breadthand depth and think there are good philosophies and concepts and ideas and such. I think the secrecy is totally lame, but I just want ppl reading to know that Im not against TCMA here--Ive spent the better part of my life studying under TCMA teachers, both good and bad, and its part of who I am.

You admit that the finer points take time. Thus that over time you improve. Do you think there is an end to that improvement? With better targeting you need less strength, when you need less strength, you can increase your speed.... From little things, big things come.

I definitely admit that the finer points of ANY activity take time. Thats my primary argument in saying that growth doesnt stop in other systems; ie, the adage of "TCMA builds skill down the road that last into old age and other system dont" is totally ridicoulous.

Perhaps you can clarify how one can simply fight 'empty minded' from the start and compete against a fully trained fighter who has the same ability, other things being equal. Trained in anything, mind you, not just TCMA. Its the principle.

Attacking is a conscious thing--that is, you must put conscious thought into where you are going to go next. Thats not to say that it cant be done with I guess, an empty-mind, but just that attacking requires conscious brain processing despite the feel of nto really thinking about it.

Defending, on the other hand, is a reaction--it takes place on an unconscious neural framework. If you have time to think about what or how you are defending something, about how you are reacting, then the attack is coming at you too slowly to train the response in context. You begin to anticipate and consider the options.

In order to train from day 1 with what you call empty-mind requires a teacher who can lead you through the motions *under pressure* at a level of intensity just slightly beyond the students reach--having a teacher that can do this is most important, you wouldnt expect another student to invoke this type of improvement.

In the beginning (read: the first 10-20 minutes) a new student will get tripped up easily and they will often make the wrong decisions or anticipate an incoming attack and feel uncomfortable. But very quickly, the pace will ramp up and the student will find that they no longer need to think about their defense and counterattack, it simply happens; Ive yet to see this fail to take hold within the first hour of training. It seems unconventional and extraordinary ONLY because so few people really train like this. Fact of the matter is, its the most logical progression for building skill under pressure--As a side point, I always enthusiastically invite anyone interested to spend an hour or 2 training inthis type ofmethod and make up your own mind.

Have you ever heard of Rosetta Stone? Im using it right now to learn Tagalog. Wonderful language program that works exceedingly well. Why? IMMERSION. They take you and throw you in the deepest water you can handle; they do NOT throw you in the deep end, they just throw you in deep enough so that you struggle a little bit and then overcome the challenge. Its full immersion; its the most pressure you can handle and still succeed quickly. ANd its the most efficient for the human brain to grow and adapt...And its the closest way I can describe what Im talking about without actually spending an hour or 2 introducing you to the method...

To me the discussion is not about TCMA as much as the high level skills one develops from extended training, in anything, with the caveat that TCMA is one of the best opportunities for life long training going.

Heres my statement from above: You get good at what you spend your time on. TCMA is no different, over the years you get exceedingly get at exactly what you train on. People always assume there s some large crossover from their choreographed defense drills to fighting. Fact is, the more time you spend on an exact task, the more presicely perfect you get at doing that one exact thing.

TCMA, MMA, fishing, or handwriting, makes no difference. If your training is qigong routines, and hitting the heavy bag, well then after 20 years, you will be excrutiatingly good at it, and cover nuances that new people an only begin to fathom...But you sure as hell wont be good at dealing with an opponent who is attempting to test your reactive capability.

The resulting conclusion is that with long term pursuit, you do develop high level skills that are unique, by the fact that you have invested time into them, and they continue to develop with time and training. Your arbitrary evaluation of 'optimisation' is rather mono dimensional to my mind.

Yes, unique for sure--in the long term you will be the pinnacle of your field in whatever you study. You will either be a brutally effective fighter because you trained in the right environment, or you will be able to produce an incredibly graceful grasping the sparrows tail with one of your students because youve done it a hundred bazillion times in that context.

Im not sure what you are getting at when you say its "mono" dimensional. Is there a reason you didnt just say 1? A bit too Philosopher King for my taste I guess

We live in a society where short term satisfaction and short term gain are the yardsticks by which many measure value. I'm hardly surprised at the pervasiveness of this opinion, its a cultural thing.

Im actually really surprised nobody has brought this one up until now; I kept waiting for it.

Fact is, Im not talking about short term satisfaction here. Im talking about progress over time. Time can be 1 month and it can be 25 years. But when you measure your progress, and you divide it into time spent, my preference would be to make the progress possible with each and every hour. Its not about short term satisfaction, its about largest amount of long term growth. If youre not training in the best way that you can, how do you expect to pick up the huge long term gains as someone who realizes a more optimal training path...?

[Yum Cha]

or perhaps people have become wise and are no longer fooled by the "it takes 10 years to become good at what we do but then no man can touch you" arguement.

either way it really depends on what you are training for, if its self defence then becoming good in a small amount of time is a good thing, if you are in it for the beauty of the art then you may want to spend years and years perfecting itsall good.

As for TCMA being one of the best chances for life long training going i still argue this is a big maybe (take tai chi out of the equation and the number of middle aged people practising TCMA goes down quite a bit). And likewise the number practising that are still able to actually hold their own in a fight with younger fights is even less.

Hello my friend,
I can speak theoretically, or I can draw from experience.

I was a little geek that got chased home from the bus when I was 13 and I was fighting old school Tae Kwon Do Tournaments on Army Bases with GIs, and winning when I was 16. 3 years of good training and I was never running home from anything any more. Sure its just Tae Kwon Do, but I got the heart too.

Later, fighting full contact tournaments in Sydney, I drew on that TKD ringcraft more on my TCMA training, I had about 4 years around then. I was just like so many of you at that point. The Chinese stuff is groovy, but always rely on 4 kicks, 4 punches for getting the job done in a pinch.

In the 23 years since, I've certainly changed my opinion. You get little breakthroughs where stuff makes sense and your executions changes. For each, I'm sure its different, but you see it when it happens in others. Its like a giant jigsaw that just comes into place. It happened for me, and I appreciate it is a rare thing. It came to me after crossing a dessert of boredom, repetitive practice, mindless participation and just one step after the other, do it again practice. 15 years maybe? But then, my style has some good stuff at that higher level. Some styles don't. If you understand Pak Mei, you know what I mean, if not, well, good luck. My previous posts kinda cover it.

I know you're a bit of an old dog too, but I think you went at it the opposite direction, moving into combat sport later, building on a traditional background?

And yes, you are much more pointed with your answer that it depends on what you are training for.
Some people train to fight because they like to.
Some train to fight because they have to.
Some train to fight because they don't want to.
Some people are just really gay and like to hang out with fighters, but that's probably irrelevant.

I've never been one to judge either harshly. Some just can't stand up to the mental intensity of MMA training, (or Boxing, or hard core TCMAs) even if they can physically.

To train MA, the key is finding a fit. One size certainly doesn't fit all.

That being said, I feel like apologising for the entire culture when I see some of the BS that TCMA people come up with. If the kwoon doesn't feel like a black iron boxing gym, buyer beware.

[Yum Cha]

when I first took up guitar, in a few months I could hammer out a decent blues progression, Jumpin Jack Flash and Johnny B. Goode.
A few years later, I could do a simple blues lick, some bends, and trills.
Now, after many years, I can play different types of music. I can fingerpick, I can play slide, from Heavy Metal to Blues. I can improvise and it is a free-flowing expression. I can put feeling into a solo. I can coax sublties from harmonics, overtones, cries and moans, soft as a baby's caress, or biting and hard. This comes from the hands, not the instrument.

I guess if all you want to play is Green Day or the Ramones, learn your three chords and rock out.

Most teenagers aren't into the Blues. To ask a teen to come to a Blues Jam and sit through an evening of song after song of the same 12 bar blues and variations of such is torture.

don't even mention jazz...

How many records you sold, huh? Huh? My cousin got a recording contract and released a single in 5 weeks.

As the old saying goes, "if I have to explain, you wouldn't understand anyhow."

[jo]

In a world where whippy swords and dance moves are readily accepted as "martial training", where the measure of one's (supposed) skill is counted in the sheer number of forms one has collected, its perfectly reasonable to accept the notion of "secret techniques".

-jo

[jo]

What kind of music do you equate SPM with?

I am not a musician, but have pondered this thought for a long time.

SPM has so many nuances, I would like to hear your perspective.

-jo

[jo]

Hello my friend,
And yes, you are much more pointed with your answer that it depends on what you are training for.
Some people train to fight because they like to.
Some train to fight because they have to.
Some train to fight because they don't want to.
Some people are just really gay and like to hang out with fighters, but that's probably irrelevant.

Thank you.

-jo

[jo]

My teacher puts it this way;
"Will training in my style make you unstoppable? No.
Will it make you better than anyone else? No.
What I have is a specific set of skills.
Whether you choose to learn it or not is up to you."

I chose to learn it.

But can you take it and make it your own?

In your music, you don't try to Be Bo Diddley....you just take what he has given you and made it your own.

Don't try to be like your Sifu, or you won't learn Diddley.

Play your SPM like your guitar...from the gut....oh, excuse me, your "dan tien".

Its all the same...its all about the basics and believing in yourself.

-jo

[TenTigers]

What kind of music do you equate SPM with?

I am not a musician, but have pondered this thought for a long time.

SPM has so many nuances, I would like to hear your perspective.

-jo

Hmmm..speaking as a guitarist,
Classical guitar, as it has the melody and chording occurring at the same time.
The hands are completely independant-left hand is picking chords and melody, right hand is doing the fingering.
Steve Miller's guitar work on "Jungle Love" which had a huge influence on Eddie Van Halen-he plays the chords, and interjects pieces of melody in between.
Much the way the hands flow in and around the opponent, interrupting the rhythm.
Jimi Hendrix playing "Little Wing." Again the chording and melody happening at once, from the same player.
Alot of Jazz guitarists like Chet Atkins do this.
Again, guys like Van Halen, Hendrix, Jeff Beck, Steve Vai, because they were extrememly unorthodox in their playing. SPM is unorthodox in the way they use angles, non-linear trajectory in their strikes, and that quality of energy.

[TenTigers]

But can you take it and make it your own?

In your music, you don't try to Be Bo Diddley....you just take what he has given you and made it your own.

Don't try to be like your Sifu, or you won't learn Diddley.

Play your SPM like your guitar...from the gut....oh, excuse me, your "dan tien".

Its all the same...its all about the basics and believing in yourself.

-jo

I don't feel I am at the stage where it is my own.
I feel that my foundational skills need more work,
just as you start by copping riffs from other guitarists, and once you have "chops," you make it your own.
Hendrix copped alot from Albert King, but then took off and became Jimi.
Stevie Ray Vaughn copped from Lee and Hendrix, but became his own man.
All in good time.
I'm in no hurry.
I know of others who cannot or will not empty their cup, so in a sense, their SPM is definately their own!
I don't wanna be that guy, if you catch my drift...

[Lokhopkuen]

Sanjuro and Luk Hop, thanks for the SPM vids.

I can certainly see more similarity to Pak Mei in your examples than in Sifu Cama's video.

I understand exactly what you mean about 'power' Sanjuro, because the same principles apply in my style.

However (there's always a but), I still appreciate what Sifu Cama is doing, and here's why.

SPM has that dynamic tension thing going on that they use to generate faat ging. Train it one way to have the skill surface for cultivation.

It appears to me, he is simply working that particular energy in isolation, be it the tension or the faat ging, its his demonstration of his level of evolution. I assume that is a recognised exercise from the system, not an ad lib? It wouldn't make much difference.

So, instead of being a 'pure fighting' technique, it is a pure skill, and then, given that skill, its up to the system and your innovation to learn how to apply it, blah, blah, blah....

Pulling skills out of techniques and indulging in training the skill is something high level TCMA are known for.

So, as a non-student of SPM, please forgive my insolence...

Hey tough guy when you coming back to LALA? Next time gimme lead time and we'll do it right

[Lokhopkuen]

In a world where whippy swords and dance moves are readily accepted as "martial training", where the measure of one's (supposed) skill is counted in the sheer number of forms one has collected, its perfectly reasonable to accept the notion of "secret techniques".

-jo

Depends who's forms you practice, does it not?
There are a great number of secrets in Martial Art and many of them are kept in the form. The form is like a love letter from the progenitors of true systems of fighting handed down from antiquity to modern man.

Sifu Manuel's Sam Bo Jin {above} for instance is quite powerful as far as training ritual goes. In fact I was quite happy to experience his skills under friendly circumstance as opposed to sudden violent introduction. Chu Ka have some rare skill sets or secrets that are extremely difficult to counter.

A well constructed, well maintained series of ritual training methods are essential for the longevity and consistency of any system. Our Bak Siu Lum is a primary example of this where we practice ten forms each one focused of various methods of martial expression, integrated, interwoven and interlinked RARE SKILL SETS. In my personal experience consistant daily practice and experimentation has lent me stability, flexibility, adaptability along with cleverly applied strength coupled with solid subtle geometric alignments. We don't practice form to collect them, we practice them until they live in us and then we forget them. When it's alive in you, you don't have to remember, it's there on tap. (Props to Ten tigers for touching on similar points)

Whippy sword is out there somewhere, but in many traditional systems the sword is alive and well.

((This isn't necessarily directed at you Jo, but))

In my experience the people that talk cr*p about form training are usually people from systems with too many under practiced and misunderstood forms or MMA practitioners who learned amalgam mishmash from some relatively low level skilled "business man" cashing in on the mixed Martial Arts Craze. A large percent of people who practice martial cultivation never lucked into, or were diligent enough, or dedicated enough effort to find and gain the respect of a real teacher connected to a true fighting lineage. I'm not saying there is anything wrong with MMA, or maybe I am