Spaztaztic Southern Mantis (Maybe)?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Old school teachers used to keep secrets, and many still do, for many reasons, but typically, they were:
To Guarantee the right sucessor ( only the most advanced form(s) were taught to a selected one/few.
To keep something that they held dear to their hearts.
To keep an "upper hand" over the students.
To give an advantage to a selected student(s) over others.

Remember, most old time teachers didn't teach for money and if they did, they didn't always teach the same stuff to everyone.
We may not agree with this methods, but it was THEIR knowledge and they could/can do with it whatever they want.
Many times it turned out WORSE for the practitioner and the system, but such is life.

[SPJ]

yes. the teacher may reserve some materials for indoor students.

however, just like recipe for cooking, some times it needs one more essential ingredient to make everything work or taste good.

practice of gong fa would make all the moves work.

without this, the moves may not work properly.

and that is always from practice over and over

and that is not a secret.

this is to encourage all students to practice the basic or fundamentals over and over from day 1 to day whenever.

not to persue the illusory "secrets" that may or may not be there.

[lkfmdc]

In a lot of the TCMA world, aka "mo lum" this talk of "secrets" has been flat out an excuse to cover NOT KNOWING SOMETHING

There is a lot of "advanced" and/or "secret" stuff in Pak hok/hop gar/lama but in the almost 2 decades I spent traveling and meeting with so-called "advanced masters" I can't tell you how many times behind closed doors when the BS was set aside, we found out they simply didn't know the stuff in question!

Often, being students of CTS, we knew it and they didn't and they asked US questions!

[SPJ]

the other big thing is personal interpretation

when I first listen to this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ujmUHDfhgFI

I think that it is the right flavor for the song.

then I listen to this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4rYJfBfeY0g

it is still ok.

then i listen to this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3nP3JulxkyQ

she is a young or not mature vocalist.

my point is that we may interprete what we learn with what we like or dislike and with whatever our physical attributes may allow.

what the teacher or other students may do, and we may not do well, sometimes it is b/c our physical attributes are not allowing us to do the same. it is not that they know some secrets that we do not know about.

----

[MysteriousPower]

In a lot of the TCMA world, aka "mo lum" this talk of "secrets" has been flat out an excuse to cover NOT KNOWING SOMETHING

There is a lot of "advanced" and/or "secret" stuff in Pak hok/hop gar/lama but in the almost 2 decades I spent traveling and meeting with so-called "advanced masters" I can't tell you how many times behind closed doors when the BS was set aside, we found out they simply didn't know the stuff in question!

Often, being students of CTS, we knew it and they didn't and they asked US questions!

Tentigers, are you going to use your condescending tone against this gentleman as well since he is not agreeing with you? I bet not.

If a student decided to stay with a teacher because he was able to make his body vibrate then that student is a fool.

[David Jamieson]

Tentigers, are you going to use your condescending tone against this gentleman as well since he is not agreeing with you? I bet not.

If a student decided to stay with a teacher because he was able to make his body vibrate then that student is a fool.

why are you deliberately trying to start a peeing match?

you believe one thing, I don't share your belief.
You keep making stuff up about what you think are secrets.

There's lots that is secret I guess. that's probably why you don't know it?

then there's a lot that just isn't revealed right away. I mean, I get where you're coming from, but if you want to write off chinese martial arts because of your own perception of things, then go ahead.

But, no need to start baiting people, misconstruing what they say, attempting to turn others against each and so on.

yep, some kung fu teachers are crap charlatans.
yep, some kungfu teachers are total jerks, but have good kung fu anyway.
yep, some kungfu teachers should stick to qigong and neigong and leave it at that
yep, etc etc etc.

don't be so thick as to not be able to see why some people are taught some things and others are not.

[MysteriousPower]

why are you deliberately trying to start a peeing match?

you believe one thing, I don't share your belief.
You keep making stuff up about what you think are secrets.

There's lots that is secret I guess. that's probably why you don't know it?

then there's a lot that just isn't revealed right away. I mean, I get where you're coming from, but if you want to write off chinese martial arts because of your own perception of things, then go ahead.

But, no need to start baiting people, misconstruing what they say, attempting to turn others against each and so on.

yep, some kung fu teachers are crap charlatans.
yep, some kungfu teachers are total jerks, but have good kung fu anyway.
yep, some kungfu teachers should stick to qigong and neigong and leave it at that
yep, etc etc etc.

don't be so thick as to not be able to see why some people are taught some things and others are not.

There is no fun in peaceful conversation. Now be gone and allow me to bait away.

Maybe he will be smart and ignore the bait.

[TenTigers]

There is no fun in peaceful conversation. Now be gone and allow me to bait away.

Maybe he will be smart and ignore the bait.

Ever wonder if there's a reason why you don't get taught all the kewl secret stuff?

(I wouldn't teach you either:-)

In all seriousness-Dave isn;t saying the same thing that you are.
There is a huge difference between saying a certain (secret) technique exists, and then not being able to come up with the goods, and then saying the reason why is because it's a secret.
and...
Having a very specific skill, and saying that it is not taught immediatly, or to outsiders.
CTS never made any claims, but taught real Kung-Fu, and backed up his teaching.
He outright scoffed at people who claimed lofty skills and then couldn't produce them in their students or in themselves.

[taai gihk yahn]

there are three reasons to keep secrets:
1) to hold secret some technology / methodology that, when engaged in a competitive activity w/another person, gives u an edge (war, sports, medicine, finance, tiddly-winks, etc.)

2) to preserve authenticity in terms of membership to a given group (mafia, kung-fu lineage, masons, Tony the Tiger's Secret Boys Club, masons)

3) stringing people along with promise of revealing secrets, whether or not they actualy exist;

of course, all 3 can get mixed and frequently do;

in TCMA, "secrets" be of several types:
1) where to hit someone; e.g. - vulnerable zones - and when the majority of the population didn't know squat about anatomy, this was valuable information; nowadays, anyone can do their homework and figure out where the body is more vulnerable;

2) how to hit someone - using certain types of "energy" to ostensibly to cause specific types of damage; again, this is probably more in function of the "where", that is, hitting a nerve cluster with a crane-beak versus the flat of the hand;

3) certain skill sets like hands-on sensitivity and efficiently issuing power - ok, fair enough, but this information is also acquired and used effectively across the board: GOOD wrestlers develop excellent "teng ging", GOOD boxers develop their own version of "fa jing", and GOOD European fencers develop excellent sticking / listening w/the sword; different path, same mountain-top...

4) internal practice: ok, so there is some funky stuff out there, some of which you might figure out on your own just by spending time sitting / standing quietly every day for an hour or so, but honestly, you could do just as well with an expert in pranayama and similar yogic disciplines to get the same sort of end results - Taoist internal stuff ain't all the different, there are certainly cultural mediated nuances, but that's about it; in this sub-set I would also include iron body, which is one thing that yoga doesn't cover, but I believe a lot of it isn't so much secrets as it is consistency and repetition...

5) medicine: can of worms, but contemporary medical knowledge vastly out does TCM in most areas; what it doesn't get, u can pretty much find in osteopathy (osteo manual pretty much blows away tuina), naturopathy, homeopathy and western herbology;

my point is this - if u go looking for secrets for their own sake (e.g. - I want to learn an esoteric tradition), u will find many people who have them; however, if u want results, then open ur eyes and take a look around at the world...

[SPJ]

qi vs zheng 奇 正

yes for every normal way, there is a suprise way.

to win is to expect the unexpected

to win is to surprise your opponent and not to be surprised by him.

here.

this is the secret.

otherwise, we all live under the same sun or the same blue sky.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=md-pY...os=J8F6ViWo4_c

[KC Elbows]

Now be gone and allow me to bait away.

Too late. If you ask us nicely, we'll explain the Hakka secret that allows us to derail your trolls. It's traditional name is "Forum members fist Water-Quan". Perhaps you've seen it before, 65 post new guy.

Now stifle yourself, before we are forced to utilize the closed door technique called "this forum does not allow multiple ids" 65 post new guy.

Yours truly,

KC Elbows
President of the Council for giving 1997 its troll back.

[Lee Chiang Po]

I gots secrets too. I have techniques that belong to me alone, and I have taught these only to my son and grandson. I have developed 11 arm, wrist, and leg locks, and 2 strangles, one being a sleeper that can not be broken. Well, short of being shot anyway.

[SPJ]

yes. there are a lot of secrets in life.

I like a fish or sea food gumbo. once I went to a restaurant in new orleans. I tasted their fish gumbo. it has many flavors. and they are all mild, but you may taste each flavor out. it was perfect.

I really wanted to know their secrets.

I went to many other restaurants but nothing was tasted like theirs.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r808d...eature=related

they had spice bags with all the right amount of ingredients.

the cooking temperture and timing had to be right---

the water has to be right. too much everything is diluted. too little the flavors will be too thick---

when the water level was low due to cooking, they added more to a certain level--

---

talking about secrets--

---

eventually, I got the secrets of a perfect gumbo.

hey hey.

[TenTigers]

yes. there are a lot of secrets in life.

I like a fish or sea food gumbo. once I went to a restaurant in new orleans. I tasted their fish gumbo. it has many flavors. and they are all mild, but you may taste each flavor out. it was perfect.

I really wanted to know their secrets.

I went to many other restaurants but nothing was tasted like theirs.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r808d...eature=related

they had spice bags with all the right amount of ingredients.

the cooking temperture and timing had to be right---

the water has to be right. too much everything is diluted. too little the flavors will be too thick---

when the water level was low due to cooking, they added more to a certain level--

---

talking about secrets--

---

eventually, I got the secrets of a perfect gumbo.

hey hey.

perhaps not...
There are secrets, and there are secrets.
Not knowing this secret to the perfect Gumbo, is like learning Gung-Fu without Lien Gung. Only the outside appearance, but no inner essence.

Ahhh, but this secret is no real secret, yet knowing it, will not make your Gumbo good, just as knowing the technique will not make your Gung-Fu good.
You need to feel it to understand it.
Simply knowing the Gumbo secret is not the same as being able to produce good Gumbo.
I could give you my recipe, but without this knowledge, I can assure you , your Gumbo will not be nearly as good.

[SPJ]

all the talks

make me hungry.