Spaztaztic Southern Mantis (Maybe)?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Having won the Internetz, where will u find the space in ur house to store it?

Next to my Golden C0ck award from my time in P0rn.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Nice post, Sanjuro. Let us all take a deep breathe and take a step back. Sometimes online posts seem more vicious than intended. My criticisms are not toward James Cama because frankly I do not know him or even of him, do not care about him, and do not care about praying mantis Kung Fu.

I noticed that the styles that have the secrets do not have a lot of material to teach to begin with. Material has to be held back or else students will get bored and leave after doing line drills for a year. They also do not do a lot of physical contact in terms of sparring. Styles that have hand drills have tons of secrets that are too deadly to be used during sparring so they have to be drilled safely in compliant two-man drills thousands of times for ten years. In functional martial arts, like judo, the only secret is how to throw that big fuk who kept throwing you last week and the secret to that is practice and praying.

I think that you need to remember that what many systems do NOW has very little to do with what they did when they became "reknown".
I think that many TCMA teachers have been so exposed to "hippies" and "kung fu fairies" that they just naturlaly assume that most are like that, untill proven otherwise and then they teach the "good stuff" to them.
This was very common in the old days and many still have that MO.
I don't agree, but it is what it is.
ANY MA system can be applicable in months and one can be proficient in it in a couple of years, of course to master anything takes a lifetime, but that is not what I am talking about.
Many things were always left to the "end" in TCMA, Iron hand, Iron body, longevity training, "lineage" forms, things liek that, that didn't make them seret per se, only guard and to be shown at the right time.
Remember, there are NO SECRETS when it comes to fighting, BUT ever system always had something that hold in "reserve" for those special occasions and those "secrets" tend to chaneg with times and they tend to evolve and be added ( or removed) by subsequent teachers.

[TenTigers]

I liked your post right up until you became condescending at the end.

sorry for that.

I have noticed that you still have not given an example of one of these supposed secrets.

cause it's a secret, dolt!

You are obviously nervous that no one will take you seriously once you reveal what your teacher held back from you.

You are obviously projecting.
Like I said, your experience is not my experience.
Man, you got some deep scars there. You gotta let that sh1t go. Move on with your life. Don't ever get divorced, dude. You'll never recover.

When you say you have felt your teachers hand does that mean you actually

fought/sparred with him

tried to-got lit up pretty fast.

I am not the one living in secret power fantasy land.

Actually, you are. You feel that everyone has had the same experience as you, and every teacher is full of it.
I'm sorry you had such a bad experience with these teachers.

It is only in cma that teachers "demonstrate" skills I stead of actually pulling them off and having to teach.

Actually, no. Again.
I know of many high level teachers in arts like Aikijujitsu, Jiu-jutsu, Hapkido, Judo,Shuai-Jiao,etc who at their age, no longer take hard falls, (it takes its toll after years and years of falls, wrist locks, etc) but still have tremendous knowledge and skill. They "demonstrate" on their students and then make hands on corrections.
I don't think Angelo Dundee traded blows with Ali, do you?

Look, for those who have shared your experience, you're preaching to the choir. For the rest, you come off like a spoiled, immature, crybaby. Probabaly a teenager, or in your twenties.
If you're older, then you've got some issues.
So basically, why are you still here?

[Frost]

Lets be honest with ourselves for a moment.
Yes, that video of Master Cama sucks, we can't argue that.
It sucks because it looks crappy, flicky and rather gay and if it was anyone else doing that we would be all over him.
But the difference is that Master Cama is a highly respected teacher and because of that, we let people like that get away with posting crap because, well, we assume that there is a reason for that.
If Anderson Silva posted a video doing a form that looked silly, it still wouldn't take away from what WE KNOW to be his skill, but to an outsider he would look like a fool.
It's ok for us to admit that we are bias.
It doesn't change that the form looked as strong, fast and powerful as someone trying to whip a sticky booger off their finger.

god are all you canadians so polite and nice

well point and exactly on the money

[David Jamieson]

god are all you canadians so polite and nice

well point and exactly on the money

You realize that "polite" and "nice" are by-products of good morals and a decent education right?

[TenTigers]

on a more serious note,
power generation, such as specific short powers, require training.
It is not so much a secret, as it is a skill that is aquired over time.
So, to the beginner, it is something down the road.
The ability to intercept someone's attack before it gets out of the gate is a skill that requires impeccable timing, sense of distance, reaction, body position, angles-these are skills, that again, require time, effort,training. (does the term, "Gung-Fu" strike a familiar tone?)
The ability to align your structure so to be able to rock someone twice your size comes only after many years of practice. To do so under pressure of attack, requires many more.
To develop the ability to strike with intent to do serious damage, while remaining calm and under control, and the ability to do so at will at a moment's notice, requires training and time.
To combine all of these, under pressure, takes even more time.
These aren't secrets.
But these are skills that cannot simply be taught to a beginner. Sure they can be discussed, demonstrated, instructed on a foundational level,and the seeds can be planted, but the skill takes years.

The secret is time, effort, hard work, patience, commitment. Gung-Fu.

[TenTigers]

ok, here's another "Secret."
Various forms of iron palm, require not simply striking a bag and using dit da jow.
However in its basic level, it requires that the student practice a specific regimen, 2-3 times a day, every day for a hundred days, for starters. In some cases, it is also required that the student remain celibate.
That in itself is a difficult task. Usually it is not taught to beginners, but "held back" for advanced training, simply because it requires a commitment to training and discipline that the beginner student does not yet possess.
Now, add to this the fact that many types of injury can be developed by improper practice, and the need for a qualified Sifu to monitor your progress is neccesary.
This Sifu must have knowledge of healing not simply superficial bruises and sprains, but possible internal damage.
If there is noi-gung involved, even more careful monitoring must be done.
Certain forms of noi-gung can cause mental stress. Someone walking that fine line, or has underlying issues, can without guidance, have serious mental/ emotional problems. If a Sifu gets an idea that this will occur, the training is not taught to that student.
None of the above would be considered, dangling a carrott.
Then again, depending on who you are, it might.

[Frost]

on a more serious note,
power generation, such as specific short powers, require training.
It is not so much a secret, as it is a skill that is aquired over time.
So, to the beginner, it is something down the road.
The ability to intercept someone's attack before it gets out of the gate is a skill that requires impeccable timing, sense of distance, reaction, body position, angles-these are skills, that again, require time, effort,training. (does the term, "Gung-Fu" strike a familiar tone?)
The ability to align your structure so to be able to rock someone twice your size comes only after many years of practice. To do so under pressure of attack, requires many more.
To develop the ability to strike with intent to do serious damage, while remaining calm and under control, and the ability to do so at will at a moment's notice, requires training and time.
To combine all of these, under pressure, takes even more time.
These aren't secrets.
But these are skills that cannot simply be taught to a beginner. Sure they can be discussed, demonstrated, instructed on a foundational level,and the seeds can be planted, but the skill takes years.

The secret is time, effort, hard work, patience, commitment. Gung-Fu.

everything takes time and effort no one is disputing that, but how much time and are the end results worth it,,thats a question and a half

if these skills you talk about take so long to learn and develop then why bother...seriously if you can learn to generate enough power via the sport arts to KO someone from a matter of inches with hooks upper cuts etc and to do this under pressure as well all in a matter of months or a few years then are these arts obsolete?

[MysteriousPower]

on a more serious note,
power generation, such as specific short powers, require training.
It is not so much a secret, as it is a skill that is aquired over time.
So, to the beginner, it is something down the road.
The ability to intercept someone's attack before it gets out of the gate is a skill that requires impeccable timing, sense of distance, reaction, body position, angles-these are skills, that again, require time, effort,training. (does the term, "Gung-Fu" strike a familiar tone?)
The ability to align your structure so to be able to rock someone twice your size comes only after many years of practice. To do so under pressure of attack, requires many more.
To develop the ability to strike with intent to do serious damage, while remaining calm and under control, and the ability to do so at will at a moment's notice, requires training and time.
To combine all of these, under pressure, takes even more time.
These aren't secrets.
But these are skills that cannot simply be taught to a beginner. Sure they can be discussed, demonstrated, instructed on a foundational level,and the seeds can be planted, but the skill takes years.

The secret is time, effort, hard work, patience, commitment. Gung-Fu.

When the tcm's of developed these techniques they were using them in times of war. They had months to train for actual combat and could not wait years. How did these Kung Fu soldiers become proficient in months and not years? What did they do differently instead of mindless drilling? The answer to that is the key. It was not till times of peace that styles started being formed and categorized as short, long, internal, external, wc, mantis, etc. It was all just martial arts. What we can take from this is that fighting skills should not take years. What takes years is specialty in a certain martial arts and the associated skills with it. The skills you mentioned sound like specialized skills that may not ever be developed since it takes "years.". When will the years be over? The skills are extra and are not necessarily needed.

[David Jamieson]

When the tcm's of developed these techniques they were using them in times of war. They had months to train for actual combat and could not wait years. How did these Kung Fu soldiers become proficient in months and not years? What did they do differently instead of mindless drilling? The answer to that is the key. It was not till times of peace that styles started being formed and categorized as short, long, internal, external, wc, mantis, etc. It was all just martial arts. What we can take from this is that fighting skills should not take years. What takes years is specialty in a certain martial arts and the associated skills with it. The skills you mentioned sound like specialized skills that may not ever be developed since it takes "years.". When will the years be over? The skills are extra and are not necessarily needed.

the average soldier wasn't using high level kungfu. he was using a gun, and before that a blade or long weapon.

warfare skills were pretty much focused on how to retain and use a weapon.

There were not armies of high level kungfu warriors. at best, there may have been a band or two here and there throughout history.

Iron skills are developed by professional mercenaries, defenders etc as opposed to regular soldiers.

But, I would say the 100 day regimen is not "years" either. It's 3 months and 2 weeks.

That's 2 weeks longer than a P90X regimen program. Nothing to say that a lot of soldiers could have trained iron skills.

as for real skill, well it doesn't matter what the subject it DOES take years to get beyond just good at it.

true mastery of anything, any subject, any field or discipline is said to take 10,000 hours or about 10 years of consistent and diligent practice.

at least, according to study material on the matter, that's what it takes.

you can be an ok boxer in year one, but in year 10, with diligent and mindful practice, you should be stellar. If not, you missed your calling. lol

[SPJ]

unfortunately in times of war

the soldiers have only 3 to 6 months of combat training, open hand, gunnery, bayonate, or da dao --

they only have limited practice and off you go and fight in a battlefield.

most of them would die.

somehow, you survive and gain first hand experience

more and more fighting and survive with more experience

--

with some luck, you may be assigned to be an instructor to teach basic training to new recruits

or advance things you learned first hand to special op or commando

--

that is just fact of life.

as a new recruit you may not ask for years and years of training--

---

[TenTigers]

I know of a highly skilled MAist who trains with another.
The teacher asked him,"Your skill is exceptional. Your power is astounding. You are a Master in your art. Why do you want to learn from me?"
His answer was,"Because there is a quality of energy, a specific type of skill that you have, that I want to learn."
It's that simple.
People who train to achieve higher level skills fully realize that these skills aren't so much neccesary for basic fighting.
They are on a different path.
They can already fight, and they are now at a point where they want to develop their skill and themselves to a different level.
It is no longer about simply winning a fight.
It's not about the ring or the cage.
It's about always improving, evolving, growing, fine tuning and honing your skill to laser precision.
It's about knowing that there is always a higher mountain.
There is a sky above sky, skill above skill.
For some, that is reason enough to devote your life to your art.

[KC Elbows]

I feel we all needed to be lectured on our bias by someone who makes a strong point not to mention by name his two instructors who he said taught him wrong. Yes, we're the ones needing correcting, he's free of giving a break to teachers well known to him.

Not that he actually had those teachers in the recent past.

I didn't comment on the vids, and I don't know and hadn't heard of Cama. I'm not familiar with mantis, and I know staring at a form doesn't change that. But of course, I'm protecting him. Stupid logic.

What I know is that Mysterious Power already admitted to being a troll on this thread. He isn't who and what he says he is, he's a guy with a beef with tma who wants to use straw man arguments to attack all cma. So why deal with him as anything else? Why treat his arguments about secrets as serious when he himself is doing exactly what he says we must not?

MMA troll. And not a new or good one. He should be treated as such.

He's not twenty. He's in his thirties. He'll be trolling other people in his forties, fifties, and the magic of the internet, unless it is constantly pointed out, will hide from him the fact that making fake ids and playing troll games at a certain age becomes very lame.

Guys like this are not on the whole damaging the reps of the bad kung fu schools in any serious way, they're doing more damage to the newer schools who are more modern in their training, who are more open, less secretive, and more alive in their training, but just getting their start. The bad schools don't rely on legitimacy, but on mystery. The thing about a mystery with no solution is that there is no solving it, and no proving, unless its creator says so, that there is no solution. So the guys who get hit most are the ones who don't try to benefit from mystery.

To happily back this on our forum is stupid. Such trolls have nothing to do with cma, except to try to damage the reputation of all by projecting the conduct of the worst on the rest, including the best. The last thing on this guy's mind is the good of cma. Bring up schools using modern methodology and more open about their practices, do exactly what this type of troll SAYS they want, and they will avoid that topic and call you a forms collector, or some other libel.

The lamest troll is one in which you are saying exactly what you believe anyway. It means you're a coward, period, and it's not truly a troll, it's a back alley way to libel people without attaching your own commonly known id to it. It's not predominantly cma guys doing this to kung fu, and we all know it.

Now, I've got some coconuts in the oven, and anyway, you people need to understand that it's not so easy for me post and continuously spar all day. Ooh, touched the top of your head lightly, my point.

[TenTigers]

Let me ask you. What is the difference between rolling with someone who has 3-5 years experience in grappling, and someone who has 15 years?

[KC Elbows]

What we can take from this is that fighting skills should not take years.

Please name each mma champ who became champ in months, in triplicate.

Then, provide all the detailed training regimens of the current champs, to verify that they don't keep secrets.

Thank you.