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Thread: New home sales plunge 33% after tax credit expires

  1. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by 1bad65 View Post
    So again, I never blamed the CRA as being the cause of the crash.
    Really?

    http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/foru...&postcount=985

    Quote Originally Posted by Reality_Check
    "More than half of subprime loans were made by independent mortgage companies not subject to comprehensive federal supervision; another 30 percent of such originations were made by affiliates of banks or thrifts, which are not subject to routine examination or supervision, and the remaining 20 percent were made by banks and thrifts."
    http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/foru...&postcount=986

    Quote Originally Posted by 1bad65
    20% of mortgages is not an insignificant number.
    http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/foru...&postcount=989

    Quote Originally Posted by Reality_Check
    Yet it's still less than 80%.
    http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/foru...&postcount=991

    Quote Originally Posted by 1bad65
    It was enough to cause the whole house of cards to come tumbling down.
    You're definitely blaming them in the above quotes.

    Quote Originally Posted by 1bad65 View Post
    Quite the opposite. They passed a law FORCING banks to make bad mortgages. Then, shockingly, those people defaulted on them!
    Quote Originally Posted by GLW View Post
    “Quite the opposite. They passed a law FORCING banks to make bad mortgages. Then, shockingly, those people defaulted on them! “

    Provide proof of these bad loans. This is a right wing talking point and I have yet to find proof of it. The ones making the bad loans also then SOLD the securities multiple times in a very large PONZI scheme. The actions that did this were almost identical to what ENRON did…and ended just
    Quote Originally Posted by 1bad65 View Post
    It's called the CRA- The Community Reincestment Act. The proof is all the defaults! People who did not qualify for a house couldn't make the payments. It's not rocket science.
    Looks like some additional blaming going on there. Every time the sub-prime mess comes up you bring up the Community Reinvestment Act (interesting Freudian slip with the "Reincestment" above ) and only the CRA...without any evidence to back up your (repeated) assertions I might point out. And you expect us to believe that you don't blame the CRA? Please.
    1bad65, you make me laugh. Dare I say it? You seem to be suffering from ODS (Obama Derangement Syndrome).

    "I didn't vote for him but he's my president, and I hope he does a good job." - John Wayne

    Clearly you want President Obama to fail, or else you wouldn't bring up every little thing you can to try and discredit him and his Administration. You seems to be actively hoping for failure.

    Perhaps you can take a lesson from The Duke.

  2. #17
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    You're just not going to grasp it.

    The CRA was a factor, not the sole cause.

    The biggest cause, BY FAR, was Government intervention via Fannie and Freddie.

    Is this simple enough for you to understand now?
    When given the choice between big business and big government, choose big business. Big business never threw millions of people into gas chambers, but big government did.

    "It does not take a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority, keen on setting brushfires of freedom in the minds of men" -Samuel Adams

  3. #18
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    The CRA 'got the ball rolling'. After it's passage, banks had to look for ways to cover bad loans they were FORCED to make. Once they found a way to cover the bad loans called for in the CRA, they figured out they could issue more bad loans and still profit because the bad loans were Gov't insured.

    Let me simplify it again:

    Do you think the Government should force banks to have to make ANY bad loans?

    Do you think it's the Federal Government's job to insure mortgages?
    When given the choice between big business and big government, choose big business. Big business never threw millions of people into gas chambers, but big government did.

    "It does not take a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority, keen on setting brushfires of freedom in the minds of men" -Samuel Adams

  4. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by 1bad65 View Post
    The CRA 'got the ball rolling'. After it's passage, banks had to look for ways to cover bad loans they were FORCED to make. Once they found a way to cover the bad loans called for in the CRA, they figured out they could issue more bad loans and still profit because the bad loans were Gov't insured.

    Let me simplify it again:

    Do you think the Government should force banks to have to make ANY bad loans?

    Do you think it's the Federal Government's job to insure mortgages?
    Please provide evidence of those bad loans. You have yet to do so. Also, you clearly did not read my quotes. Please take note of the bolded sections and the underlined sections particularly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reality_Check View Post
    From a speech by Federal Reserve Board Governor Randall S. Kroszner:

    http://www.federalreserve.gov/newsev...081203a.htm#f6

    Some critics of the CRA contend that by encouraging banking institutions to help meet the credit needs of lower-income borrowers and areas, the law pushed banking institutions to undertake high-risk mortgage lending. We have not yet seen empirical evidence to support these claims, nor has it been our experience in implementing the law over the past 30 years that the CRA has contributed to the erosion of safe and sound lending practices...

    The CRA does not stipulate minimum targets or goals for lending, investments, or services. Rather, the law provides incentives for financial institutions to help meet the credit needs of lower-income people and areas, consistent with safe and sound banking practices, and commensurately provides them favorable CRA consideration for those activities. By requiring regulators to make CRA performance ratings and evaluations public and to consider those ratings when reviewing applications for mergers, acquisitions, and branches, the Congress created an unusual set of incentives to promote interaction between lenders and community organizations.

    Given the incentives of the CRA, bankers have pursued lines of business that had not been previously tapped by forming partnerships with community organizations and other stakeholders to identify and help meet the credit needs of underserved communities. This experimentation in lending, often combined with financial education and counseling and consideration of nontraditional measures of creditworthiness, expanded the markets for safe lending in underserved communities and demonstrated its viability; as a result, these actions attracted competition from other financial services providers, many of whom were not covered by the CRA. There are many fine examples of community development lending and investment activities designed to address needs in the poorest of areas, including many of those highlighted by the case studies in this report...

    Over the years, the Federal Reserve has prepared two reports for the Congress that provide information on the performance of lending to lower-income borrowers or neighborhoods--populations that are the focus of the CRA. These studies found that lending to lower-income individuals and communities has been nearly as profitable and performed similarly to other types of lending done by CRA-covered institutions. Thus, the long-term evidence shows that the CRA has not pushed banks into extending loans that perform out of line with their traditional businesses. Rather, the law has encouraged banks to be aware of lending opportunities in all segments of their local communities as well as to learn how to undertake such lending in a safe and sound manner...

    In analyzing the available data, we focused on two distinct metrics: loan origination activity and loan performance. With respect to the first question concerning loan originations, we wanted to know which types of lending institutions made higher-priced loans, to whom those loans were made, and in what types of neighborhoods the loans were extended. This analysis allowed us to determine what fraction of subprime lending could be related to the CRA.

    Our analysis of the loan data found that about 60 percent of higher-priced loan originations went to middle- or higher-income borrowers or neighborhoods. Such borrowers are not the populations targeted by the CRA. In addition, more than 20 percent of the higher-priced loans were extended to lower-income borrowers or borrowers in lower-income areas by independent nonbank institutions--that is, institutions not covered by the CRA.

    Putting together these facts provides a striking result: Only 6 percent of all the higher-priced loans were extended by CRA-covered lenders to lower-income borrowers or neighborhoods in their CRA assessment areas, the local geographies that are the primary focus for CRA evaluation purposes. This result undermines the assertion by critics of the potential for a substantial role for the CRA in the subprime crisis. In other words, the very small share of all higher-priced loan originations that can reasonably be attributed to the CRA makes it hard to imagine how this law could have contributed in any meaningful way to the current subprime crisis...

    The final analysis we undertook to investigate the likely effects of the CRA on the subprime crisis was to examine foreclosure activity across neighborhoods grouped by income. We found that most foreclosure filings have taken place in middle- or higher-income neighborhoods; in fact, foreclosure filings have increased at a faster pace in middle- or higher-income areas than in lower-income areas that are the focus of the CRA.

    Two key points emerge from all of our analysis of the available data. First, only a small portion of subprime mortgage originations are related to the CRA. Second, CRA- related loans appear to perform comparably to other types of subprime loans. Taken together, as I stated earlier, we believe that the available evidence runs counter to the contention that the CRA contributed in any substantive way to the current mortgage crisis.
    1bad65, you make me laugh. Dare I say it? You seem to be suffering from ODS (Obama Derangement Syndrome).

    "I didn't vote for him but he's my president, and I hope he does a good job." - John Wayne

    Clearly you want President Obama to fail, or else you wouldn't bring up every little thing you can to try and discredit him and his Administration. You seems to be actively hoping for failure.

    Perhaps you can take a lesson from The Duke.

  5. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by 1bad65 View Post
    You're just not going to grasp it.

    The CRA was a factor, not the sole cause.

    The biggest cause, BY FAR, was Government intervention via Fannie and Freddie.

    Is this simple enough for you to understand now?
    Yet, you only seem to bring up the CRA repeatedly, only to be refuted (and re-refuted, and re-re-refuted, etc...) by me.

    Please show evidence that the CRA was reponsible for forcing the banks to make bad loans.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reality_Check View Post
    From a speech by Federal Reserve Board Governor Randall S. Kroszner:

    http://www.federalreserve.gov/newsev...081203a.htm#f6

    Two key points emerge from all of our analysis of the available data. First, only a small portion of subprime mortgage originations are related to the CRA. Second, CRA- related loans appear to perform comparably to other types of subprime loans. Taken together, as I stated earlier, we believe that the available evidence runs counter to the contention that the CRA contributed in any substantive way to the current mortgage crisis.
    1bad65, you make me laugh. Dare I say it? You seem to be suffering from ODS (Obama Derangement Syndrome).

    "I didn't vote for him but he's my president, and I hope he does a good job." - John Wayne

    Clearly you want President Obama to fail, or else you wouldn't bring up every little thing you can to try and discredit him and his Administration. You seems to be actively hoping for failure.

    Perhaps you can take a lesson from The Duke.

  6. #21
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    The government can't force me to sign off on a bad loan I know I can't pay off.

    Then again, what politician in his/her right mind, especially a libertarian one, would have the guts to say that the housing crash is the result of VERY bad financial decisions by the common American? It's so much easier to blame the government because WE SIGNED OFF ON A LOAN WE CAN'T AFFORD.
    The weakest of all weak things is a virtue that has not been tested in the fire.
    ~ Mark Twain

    Everyone has a plan until they’ve been hit.
    ~ Joe Lewis

    A warrior may choose pacifism; others are condemned to it.
    ~ Author unknown

    "You don't feel lonely.Because you have a lively monkey"

    "Ninja can HURT the Spartan, but the Spartan can KILL the Ninja"

  7. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Drake View Post
    The government can't force me to sign off on a bad loan I know I can't pay off.

    Then again, what politician in his/her right mind, especially a libertarian one, would have the guts to say that the housing crash is the result of VERY bad financial decisions by the common American? It's so much easier to blame the government because WE SIGNED OFF ON A LOAN WE CAN'T AFFORD.
    And who is to blame for the trillions of dollars that the government owes? Who is to blame for Obama's mad spending sprees, where he spends money that the government does not have, meaning that he may drag the US down into an economic depression that will make the current one look like a picnic.

    Of course, many, including me, believe that Obama's intention is to destroy the US economy so as to fascilitate the NWO agenda....so let's wait and see...

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hardwork108 View Post
    And who is to blame for the trillions of dollars that the government owes? Who is to blame for Obama's mad spending sprees, where he spends money that the government does not have, meaning that he may drag the US down into an economic depression that will make the current one look like a picnic.

    Of course, many, including me, believe that Obama's intention is to destroy the US economy so as to fascilitate the NWO agenda....so let's wait and see...
    Actually, most of the deficit is due not so much to Fmr Pres Bush, but the war on terror. He just happened to be head honcho when AQ launched their attack.

    Fmr Pres Clinton left us with a surplus, but then again, he had nothing of the magnitude of two wars and a housing meltdown to deal with, either.

    And what mad spending sprees might you be referring to? And might you do me a favor of comparing his "mad spending sprees" with similar initiatives of past presidents? Like the war on drugs? The cold war? Maybe the cost of the arms race?

    One thing about the internet... stupid people can talk as much as they want...
    The weakest of all weak things is a virtue that has not been tested in the fire.
    ~ Mark Twain

    Everyone has a plan until they’ve been hit.
    ~ Joe Lewis

    A warrior may choose pacifism; others are condemned to it.
    ~ Author unknown

    "You don't feel lonely.Because you have a lively monkey"

    "Ninja can HURT the Spartan, but the Spartan can KILL the Ninja"

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drake View Post
    And what mad spending sprees might you be referring to?
    Call me crazy, but giving "free" healthcare to 30 million people isn't going to be cheap.
    When given the choice between big business and big government, choose big business. Big business never threw millions of people into gas chambers, but big government did.

    "It does not take a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority, keen on setting brushfires of freedom in the minds of men" -Samuel Adams

  10. #25
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    It cracks me up when people blame the gov for businesses' failures. "The government made them extend those loans." The government did not make anyone then decide to ignore the fact that they couldn't cover their own contracts. No one was complaining until their shenanigans saw the light of day, and suddenly it's someone else's fault.

    Where I disagree with Hardwork is not in the idea that there are people with long term agendas based on classist ideas of who should decide for whom, I think he's spot on there, but on that it requires anything more than a brave new world approach to do it, give people things and they will forget they never needed them. The 1984 approach has never and will never work.

    No one, in the last thirty years, has in any way challenged the power of plenty to derail our system, and the housing market is the perfect example of this: plenty as the draw, and as soon as that draw seemed illusory, we blame the gov instead of those extending the loans and those accepting them BOTH.

    This might be the pinot noir speaking.

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reality_Check View Post
    Please show evidence that the CRA was reponsible for forcing the banks to make bad loans.
    Here ya go:
    http://www.lewrockwell.com/dilorenzo/dilorenzo125.html

    FYI, Thomas J. DiLorenzo is a professor of economics at Loyola College in Maryland .
    When given the choice between big business and big government, choose big business. Big business never threw millions of people into gas chambers, but big government did.

    "It does not take a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority, keen on setting brushfires of freedom in the minds of men" -Samuel Adams

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by KC Elbows View Post
    It cracks me up when people blame the gov for businesses' failures. "The government made them extend those loans." The government did not make anyone then decide to ignore the fact that they couldn't cover their own contracts. No one was complaining until their shenanigans saw the light of day, and suddenly it's someone else's fault.
    This is true. You are right.

    But you did read my posts about how the CRA forced the banks to figure out how to cover the bad loans, right? And once they figured out how to offload the bad loans successfully, with the help of Fannie and Freddie, they were now able to overextend themselves. It's PARTIALLY the bank's fault, and PARTIALLY the Government's fault. But one thing I hope we can all agree on: The banks could not have gotten in over their heads without the Government intervention via Fannie and Freddie insuring the massive amounts of bad loans, right?
    When given the choice between big business and big government, choose big business. Big business never threw millions of people into gas chambers, but big government did.

    "It does not take a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority, keen on setting brushfires of freedom in the minds of men" -Samuel Adams

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1bad65 View Post
    Call me crazy, but giving "free" healthcare to 30 million people isn't going to be cheap.
    Neither was making enough nukes to overkill the planet over 300 times. Bet the nukes cost more.
    The weakest of all weak things is a virtue that has not been tested in the fire.
    ~ Mark Twain

    Everyone has a plan until they’ve been hit.
    ~ Joe Lewis

    A warrior may choose pacifism; others are condemned to it.
    ~ Author unknown

    "You don't feel lonely.Because you have a lively monkey"

    "Ninja can HURT the Spartan, but the Spartan can KILL the Ninja"

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1bad65 View Post
    This is true. You are right.

    But you did read my posts about how the CRA forced the banks to figure out how to cover the bad loans, right? And once they figured out how to offload the bad loans successfully, with the help of Fannie and Freddie, they were now able to overextend themselves. It's PARTIALLY the bank's fault, and PARTIALLY the Government's fault. But one thing I hope we can all agree on: The banks could not have gotten in over their heads without the Government intervention via Fannie and Freddie insuring the massive amounts of bad loans, right?
    I didn't realize that Fanny and Freddy were the government. And if they were accepting all this, why? Not as a favor to the government, you can be sure of that. Further, if a business accepts losses that overwhelm it's profits, then that's always their problem, regardless of the whys and wherefores.

    As for the courts, our courts favor those who can afford the best lawyers, not justice. Read Rembar's Law of the Land which has recommendations by both Norman Mailer and William F. Buckley, Jr. When the lawyers are for profit, then justice is as well, especially civil justice.

    The problem is complex. Free trade, or anything close to it, always results in a moneyed group of free traders using their cash to influence the state. Always. Free trade has never led to more free trade in practice. Contracts with Indians held by the founding fathers would never have been seen as legal if they had been between two different sets of founding fathers, because they used the state to enforce illegal contracts against the natives that they couldn't against each other. So, given that free trade destroys itself, without the state to enforce it, it is just another utopian dream.

  15. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by 1bad65 View Post
    Here ya go:
    http://www.lewrockwell.com/dilorenzo/dilorenzo125.html

    FYI, Thomas J. DiLorenzo is a professor of economics at Loyola College in Maryland .
    That is your evidence? All he made were assertions. He literally quoted no evidence or studies supporting those assertions. Though I do like how he threw ACORN in there using words like "like" and "such as" for the old guilt by association trick. That article is polemic plain and simple. Try again.

    1. Provide evidence that the CRA forced the banks subject to it's regulations to make bad loans.

    2. Provide evidence as to what percentage of the total CRA loans written were bad.

    3. Compare the percentage of defaulted CRA loans to the percentage of defaulted non-CRA loans.

    4. Provide evidence of the number of CRA sub-prime/Alt-A loans as compared to the total number of sub-prime/Alt-A loans written.

    5. Provide evidence of how many of those CRA sub-prime/Alt-A loans defaulted. Compare that to the total number of CRA sub-prime/Alt-A loans issued. A percentage would be fine.

    6. Do the same as #5 for non-CRA loans.

    7. Compare the percentage of CRA sub-prime/Alt-A loans that defaulted to the percentage of non-CRA sub-prime/Alt-A loans that defaulted.

    I'll be waiting with bated breath. Though I fully expect you'll refuse on the account that I can look it up myself and why should you do the work for me.
    1bad65, you make me laugh. Dare I say it? You seem to be suffering from ODS (Obama Derangement Syndrome).

    "I didn't vote for him but he's my president, and I hope he does a good job." - John Wayne

    Clearly you want President Obama to fail, or else you wouldn't bring up every little thing you can to try and discredit him and his Administration. You seems to be actively hoping for failure.

    Perhaps you can take a lesson from The Duke.

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