Another possible reason to be more open towards Traditional Chinese Medicine?

[Hardwork108]

Is this true? What do you think?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B6eGQ...eature=related





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[taai gihk yahn]

Is this true? What do you think?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B6eGQ...eature=related





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wellllll, not necessarily; however, it is an excellent reason to become more aware of the realities of clinical trials; and while I do agree with much of what the gal in the vid is saying, she does paint a somewhat one-sided picture - she also seems to be innordinately focusing on anti-depression and pain medication as examples, and we all know that pharmacological management of mood and pain are the two most difficult areas to deal with, because of the highly subjective and fluctuating nature of mood and pain perception; also, she seems to imply that the drug companies are trying to hide the fact that good diet and exercise are excellent ways of mediating depression, which is really a bit of a stretch - it is widely known and accepted that both these factors are important and should b employed - the "problem" however, is that most people seem to want a fix that fits into their lifestyles in a more convenient manner than taking time to learn about and do things like eating well and exercising - institutions are ultimatley the product of societal collective unconscious, so to speak - if big drug comapnies and fast food companies exist it is to at least some extent because people prefer, on some level, the convenience they offer in lieu of taking personal responsibility for their own health;

it's not just the companies "brainwashing" people - it takes 2 to tango; human nature is, ultimately, geared towards energy conservation; meaning that if we are sufficiently convinced that someone else can do something for us without any immediate detriment, we will take advantage of that; and this attitude is what perpetuates the institutions as such; it's really up to each and every individual to "wake up" and thus the only true revolution is the one within each person - regardless of whether or not "society" changes as a whole - but again, at what point does the individual and spciety seperate? the individual IS society; but also the individual is not society - this is the paradox that always has and always will exist, and our institutions reflect it;

incidently, bearing in mind that TCM as a unified field is a recent concept (mid-20th cent.), and the product of the PRC, so it's just as institutionalized as the FDA, really; additionally, quality control in Chinese patent medicines has, (until recently - quaity contro is bette now) been a major concern, and there are many TCM practitioners who won't use them accordingly; of course, there are many theoretical and methodological differences, but Chinese medicine as an abstract ideal is no better or worse than so-called "western" medicine as an abstract / ideal; it's really how either one is put into practice: for example, my wife was trained very well in clinical medicine back in USSR - meaning that she uses so-called "western" medical theory in much the same way that a TCM practitioner uses TCM - she reads people very well, and often picks up on things that other docs don't see, because she knows what to look for - and western medicine, especially european school, was very good at this even until recently, because docs didn't have a lot of hi-tech resources, but relied on personal skill to diagnose and treat; similarly, osteopathic medicine was the same way, where DO's used their hands to figure out a lot of stuff that you just can't get with an MRI - indeed if you read anything written by A.T.Still (founder of osteopathy), a lot of it reads very similarly to TCM, in terms of how it organizes knowledge of the human organism - but at the same time he talks about histological stuff as well (this was about 125 yrs. ago, so "modern" techniques were just coming to the fore, and he was right on the curve); at the same time, the contemporary hi-tech stuff allows you to find things that clinical medicine can't: a lot of avanced surgical imaging now allows procedures to be visualized and performed with a evel of precision and speed that 20 yrs. ago was impossible, leading to better outcomes and less recovery time - but of course, one needs to know when to use hi-tech methods, and when to not place too much reliance on them (of course, if you don't use them, and something untoward happens, then the patient sues your asz, so you end up doing them anyway, even if you don't need to, lol)

so it's not a question of TCM vs. western medicine, really - it's about how the respective bodies of knowledge are taught and applied that makes them effective or not;

BTW, if u r interested in how a lot of the "ancient" TCM concepts can be articulated in a contemporary framework, read the 4 articles I have linked to in my sig, it will give you some idea of how one can be "holistic" but with a higher degree of specificity than something like TCM usually offers

[Hardwork108]

wellllll, not necessarily; however, it is an excellent reason to become more aware of the realities of clinical trials; and while I do agree with much of what the gal in the vid is saying, she does paint a somewhat one-sided picture - she also seems to be innordinately focusing on anti-depression and pain medication as examples, and we all know that pharmacological management of mood and pain are the two most difficult areas to deal with, because of the highly subjective and fluctuating nature of mood and pain perception; also, she seems to imply that the drug companies are trying to hide the fact that good diet and exercise are excellent ways of mediating depression, which is really a bit of a stretch - it is widely known and accepted that both these factors are important and should b employed - the "problem" however, is that most people seem to want a fix that fits into their lifestyles in a more convenient manner than taking time to learn about and do things like eating well and exercising - institutions are ultimatley the product of societal collective unconscious, so to [speak - if big drug comapnies and fast food companies exist it is to at least some extent because people prefer, on some level, the convenience they offer in lieu of taking personal responsibility for their own health;

I agree with most of what you say here, however, there seems to be some ignorance, at least in some sectors of the modern medical establishment as regards the benefits of a healthy diet, and knowing what I know about the realities of the business world, I would suggest that Big Pharma has no moral objection to making money from sick people and does not really care, as without sick people they would not be bringing in billions of dollars of revenue a year.

Let me give you an example from my experience. I remember accompanying my mother to see a SPECIALIST consultant in a London hospital who was going to advise her on a suitable cancer treatment. The diagnosis itself was a dubious one, but I don' t wish to discuss that. Anyway, the man in the striped suite talked and talked and gave all the details of her treatment to come. Then when he finished, I asked him about what kind of diet he would recommend for her, and he said something on the lines of, "she can eat anything she wants"!

I believe that this kind of ignorance is common in the modern scientific establishment that sees its own medicines and treatments as the beginning and the end for all problems. Of course, and as always, there may be a lot of exceptions, but I know of other cases to the contrary as well.

it's not just the companies "brainwashing" people - it takes 2 to tango; human nature is, ultimately, geared towards energy conservation; meaning that if we are sufficiently convinced that someone else can do something for us without any immediate detriment, we will take advantage of that; and this attitude is what perpetuates the institutions as such; it's really up to each and every individual to "wake up" and thus the only true revolution is the one within each person - regardless of whether or not "society" changes as a whole - but again, at what point does the individual and spciety seperate? the individual IS society; but also the individual is not society - this is the paradox that always has and always will exist, and our institutions reflect it;

I also agree that most change will start within us, however, it is always good to be aware of big business corruption which in my humble opinion is deep inbred within Western societies.

incidently, bearing in mind that TCM as a unified field is a recent concept (mid-20th cent.), and the product of the PRC, so it's just as institutionalized as the FDA, really; additionally, quality control in Chinese patent medicines has, (until recently - quaity contro is bette now) been a major concern, and there are many TCM practitioners who won't use them accordingly; of course, there are many theoretical and methodological differences, but Chinese medicine as an abstract ideal is no better or worse than so-called "western" medicine as an abstract / ideal;

I appreciate that and that is why I suggested further open mindedness towards TCM, rather than complete preference, as I believe that both approaches have their benefits.

it's really how either one is put into practice: for example, my wife was trained very well in clinical medicine back in USSR - meaning that she uses so-called "western" medical theory in much the same way that a TCM practitioner uses TCM - she reads people very well, and often picks up on things that other docs don't see, because she knows what to look for - and western medicine, especially european school, was very good at this even until recently, because docs didn't have a lot of hi-tech resources, but relied on personal skill to diagnose and treat;

I would also hazard a guess that your wife has a natural healing touch, instinct and personality. You may be a very lucky man, specially if together with being an instinctive healer and competent professional, she also cooks the delicious Russian Borsch, and if she does, then please send me a pot of it to me in Colombia. I miss that stuff here in the Southern Hemisphere....

similarly, osteopathic medicine was the same way, where DO's used their hands to figure out a lot of stuff that you just can't get with an MRI - indeed if you read anything written by A.T.Still (founder of osteopathy), a lot of it reads very similarly to TCM, in terms of how it organizes knowledge of the human organism - but at the same time he talks about histological stuff as well (this was about 125 yrs. ago, so "modern" techniques were just coming to the fore, and he was right on the curve); at the same time, the contemporary hi-tech stuff allows you to find things that clinical medicine can't: a lot of avanced surgical imaging now allows procedures to be visualized and performed with a evel of precision and speed that 20 yrs. ago was impossible, leading to better outcomes and less recovery time - but of course, one needs to know when to use hi-tech methods, and when to not place too much reliance on them (of course, if you don't use them, and something untoward happens, then the patient sues your asz, so you end up doing them anyway, even if you don't need to, lol)

I guess nowadays one is better off safe then sorry. So, the moral of the story is a healthy marriage between the two approaches can be good for your health?

[QUOTE=taai gihk yahn]so it's not a question of TCM vs. western medicine, really - it's about how the respective bodies of knowledge are taught and applied that makes them effective or not;[//quote]
I suppose that each individual will have his or her preferences depending on their own mindset and experience. Of course, the fact remains that both approaches can learn from each other.

BTW, if u r interested in how a lot of the "ancient" TCM concepts can be articulated in a contemporary framework, read the 4 articles I have linked to in my sig, it will give you some idea of how one can be "holistic" but with a higher degree of specificity than something like TCM usually offers

Thank you. It sounds like they could be interesting reads.

[taai gihk yahn]

I agree with most of what you say here, however, there seems to be some ignorance, at least in some sectors of the modern medical establishment as regards the benefits of a healthy diet, and

there is more awareness, although many docs still don't get it

knowing what I know about the realities of the business world, I would suggest that Big Pharma has no moral objection to making money from sick people and does not really care, as without sick people they would not be bringing in billions of dollars of revenue a year.

i agree that this is likely the case in many instances; big pharma is a mixed bag...

Let me give you an example from my experience. I remember accompanying my mother to see a SPECIALIST consultant in a London hospital who was going to advise her on a suitable cancer treatment. The diagnosis itself was a dubious one, but I don' t wish to discuss that. Anyway, the man in the striped suite talked and talked and gave all the details of her treatment to come. Then when he finished, I asked him about what kind of diet he would recommend for her, and he said something on the lines of, "she can eat anything she wants"!

yes, that is unfortunately the attitude - don't ask your oncologist about what to eat...
hope ur mom is doing well;

I believe that this kind of ignorance is common in the modern scientific establishment that sees its own medicines and treatments as the beginning and the end for all problems. Of course, and as always, there may be a lot of exceptions, but I know of other cases to the contrary as well.

there are a lot of short comings in the disease-oriented approach; to some degree that is changing, but the change is a slow one;

I also agree that most change will start within us, however, it is always good to be aware of big business corruption which in my humble opinion is deep inbred within Western societies.

eastern as well - India, China & Japan as empires historically behaved in much the same way as western corporations- the "west" just got better at building weapons than they were...

I appreciate that and that is why I suggested further open mindedness towards TCM, rather than complete preference, as I believe that both approaches have their benefits.

I would concur;

I would also hazard a guess that your wife has a natural healing touch, instinct and personality. You may be a very lucky man, specially if together with being an instinctive healer and competent professional, she also cooks the delicious Russian Borsch, and if she does, then please send me a pot of it to me in Colombia. I miss that stuff here in the Southern Hemisphere....

she makes a beet soup that she claims is not borscht - but it's tasty; and I have stopped trying to understand what the difference is...

I guess nowadays one is better off safe then sorry. So, the moral of the story is a healthy marriage between the two approaches can be good for your health?

seems to be the case

I suppose that each individual will have his or her preferences depending on their own mindset and experience. Of course, the fact remains that both approaches can learn from each other.

to some degree, yes

Thank you. It sounds like they could be interesting reads.

they'll give the brain something to chew for a while

[sanjuro_ronin]

Let me give you an example from my experience. I remember accompanying my mother to see a SPECIALIST consultant in a London hospital who was going to advise her on a suitable cancer treatment. The diagnosis itself was a dubious one, but I don' t wish to discuss that. Anyway, the man in the striped suite talked and talked and gave all the details of her treatment to come. Then when he finished, I asked him about what kind of diet he would recommend for her, and he said something on the lines of, "she can eat anything she wants"!

I believe that this kind of ignorance is common in the modern scientific establishment that sees its own medicines and treatments as the beginning and the end for all problems. Of course, and as always, there may be a lot of exceptions, but I know of other cases to the contrary as well.

I didn't know you have been going through such a turmoil...
As someone that has been there and done that, allow me to offer some small advice, if I may.
Exercise is crucial for fighting cancer, any cancer, along with a proper and healthy diet.
Dr Weil, he has a website, has some advice about foods that boost your immune system and strength, which gets ravaged with typical treatments.
Strength training is very important since that is one of the hardest hit things.
Getting strong before Chemo or radiation is a very good way to get trough it.
I don't know the health or condition of your mom, but yoga and taiji can also work wonders for her during and after treatment, they will help her mood and spirit if nothing else.
You will be in for a tough time, I am sure you are aware of this, but as it stands, depending on the cancer, there can be a very good chance of recovery, so be hopeful.
In Toronto we have one of the best, some say the best, cancer hospital in the world at Princess Margret, if you are looking at international hospitals, that may be an option.
All the best to you and your Mom, we may not always agree on MA pov, but we are all the same children of God, whether you believe that or not, I do.
My prayers go out to you and your Mom.

[Hardwork108]

hope ur mom is doing well;

Thank you.

She is fine. she went through some low level Chemo Therapy. I believe that there was a good chance that she did not even have cancer to start with. A few years after all of this was over, a report came out in the UK that said that a high percentage of people diagnosed with cancer may have been misdiagnosed.

One cannot be sure, but this could be the good old money machine and state run hospitals justifying their budgets through such immoral behavior.

My mother's preliminary tests had not revealed any cancers. One of my father's personal friends was a consultant gynacologist in that same hospital and he was also sure that the tests had not revealed anything. However, after my mother's operation, "some cancer cells" were apparently found, and that is where it all started.

My father's friend who was not involved in the post operation biopsy, has also doubted the results.

[Anyway, I have talked too much already about personal issues. And now that people know that my dear mother is alive and living, there may suddenly appear rumors here in the forums that I have been disowned by my own MMA practicing parents...LOL]

eastern as well - India, China & Japan as empires historically behaved in much the same way as western corporations- the "west" just got better at building weapons than they were...

That is for sure.

she makes a beet soup that she claims is not borscht - but it's tasty; and I have stopped trying to understand what the difference is...

If it has beetroot , tomato puré, cabbage and potato, then it could probably be classified as borsch, but I could be wrong.

Cooking is not my fort but I am "evolving" in that department. I have recently perfected my chicken kebabs and mince meat kebab, "technique"...

The taste takes me back to the old country, I might even market this food here in Colombia.

they'll give the brain something to chew for a while

Hey, what are you implying?


Seriously though, I had a quick look at the first article and I will be digging into it later on this evening after today's kung fu training.

I believe that it will help not only understand some medical perspectives, but also perhaps to some extent, help me in my personal investigation of some of the deeper Chow Gar kung fu principles relating to internal, body unity, etc.

So, thank you for suggesting them.

[Hardwork108]

I didn't know you have been going through such a turmoil...
As someone that has been there and done that, allow me to offer some small advice, if I may.
Exercise is crucial for fighting cancer, any cancer, along with a proper and healthy diet.
Dr Weil, he has a website, has some advice about foods that boost your immune system and strength, which gets ravaged with typical treatments.
Strength training is very important since that is one of the hardest hit things.
Getting strong before Chemo or radiation is a very good way to get trough it.
I don't know the health or condition of your mom, but yoga and taiji can also work wonders for her during and after treatment, they will help her mood and spirit if nothing else.
You will be in for a tough time, I am sure you are aware of this, but as it stands, depending on the cancer, there can be a very good chance of recovery, so be hopeful.
In Toronto we have one of the best, some say the best, cancer hospital in the world at Princess Margret, if you are looking at international hospitals, that may be an option.

My mother is fine now. She was found to be clear after her treatment, and she goes to regular check ups. We still don't know wether she really had cancer or if the diagnois was a "mistake". However, she is a calm and kind person, who has always been careful with her diet, and has never been excessive in her life, so this may have played a role in her recovery, if she was indeed suffering from cancer.

I was living in Brasil when all of this happened. I visited her, and while with her, I showed her some chi kung exercises to help her along. I even suggested a good Chinese Medical center to her, but she was uncomfortable with the idea of mixing her treatments.

I need to thank you for the information, just in case "C" strikes again.

All the best to you and your Mom,we may not always agree on MA pov, but we are all the same children of God, whether you believe that or not, I do.

I believe that we are part of the same consciousness, so I guess our realities will meet in some point.

My prayers go out to you and your Mom.

Thank you again for your advice and consideration.

Now, I prefer this Sanjuro a lot more than the other one....

[Dale Dugas]

HW,

I have to say that I am very sorry to hear that your mother was ill.

Though I do not get along with you most of the time, I really do not harbor ill will towards you and yours.

I too, took care of a terminal partner until she passed in 2001 from complications to a brain tumor.

One of my herbal mentors is doing serious cancer research at Dana Farber Cancer Institute in Boston.

Let me know if you ever need any help in locating decent resources for Chinese medicine.

I have said prayers to Green Tara, for your mother, you and your clan.

[Hardwork108]

I just saw this:

HW,

I have to say that I am very sorry to hear that your mother was ill.

Though I do not get along with you most of the time, I really do not harbor ill will towards you and yours.

I too, took care of a terminal partner until she passed in 2001 from complications to a brain tumor.

One of my herbal mentors is doing serious cancer research at Dana Farber Cancer Institute in Boston.

Let me know if you ever need any help in locating decent resources for Chinese medicine.

I have said prayers to Green Tara, for your mother, you and your clan.

Many thanks for your wishes, and I am sorry about the loss of your partner.

I hope that we can put this silly arguing behind us.

I sometimes end up with arguments with people who do not really practice TCMAs in any serious way and sometimes they begin to involve people who do actually practice kung fu, and it all ends up turning into unfortunate situations.

Even so, many of my comments are tongue in cheek and not meant to seriously offend anyone.

Peace.

[Drake]

Well wishes for your mother and your family, HW.

[Hardwork108]

Well wishes for your mother and your family, HW.

I don't know how to take this.


Just kidding. Thank you Drake.

[KC Elbows]

Glad to hear she's okay.

Would it make you feel better if we called Dragonzbane in to rant at you for a while?

[Hardwork108]

Glad to hear she's okay.

Thank you.

Would it make you feel better if we called Dragonzbane in to rant at you for a while?

Talk about Chemotherapy!