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Thread: The 3 Centerlines

  1. #16
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    1. HFY Saam Dim Yat Sin Ceterline: The self centerline, obvious center of gravity for any individual.

    2. HFY Kiu Sau centerline:A <----> B centerline. Appears when we intorduce another person into the equation. The newly formed centerline between opponent A and B. Centerline of engagement. Meaning at the point of engagement one should neither over commit nor sell themselves short. This is where the Hung Fa Yi Kiu Sau training comes into play specifically. The kiu sau combined with the tin yan dei training and 4 gate and 6 gate technology must be completely understood before learning the HFY kiu sau chi sau. This is different than someone who might learn and use the technology of tan bong and fuk with out having trained any kiu sau. As you may recall we (HFY) spent a lot of time on this forum discussing kiu sau technology. For that very reason this is why we defend our (HFY) position that chi sau is born of this knowledge of kiu sau and centerline engagement, tin yan dei, and 4 gate and 6 gate technology and is used for actually fighting and not just an excercise to be used in class. So yes there is the point a to b concept but the key to understanding how to connect and how to gain the advantage once you engage is found in the training of the kiu sau, tin yan dei and 4 and 6 gate technology.

    3. Gee Ng Kiu Tin Yan Dei centerline: Heaven Human & Earth time and space factors, Gee Ng Kiu is energy factors, in HFY system we have 5 types of energies.
    Because the opponents size shape and positioning are not constant you must be able to find the centerline between you and your opponent as defined by tin yan dei factors.


    Yin and Yang lines are reference points of the HFY box/gate theory employed by HFY wing chun system. Yang for instance starts from the left shoulder yin would be nipple and then yang center and again yin right nipple and then right shoulder yang. Of course these are must be combined with the upper middle and lower reference points of siu nim tao to produce the HFY 4 and 6 gate box theory we speak of in wing chun.

    Of course there is more to it than this but I hope this helps bridge the communication gap a bit.
    Tony Jacobs

    ng doh luk mun fa kin kwan

    "...Therefore the truly great man dwells on what is real
    and not what is on the surface,
    On the fruit and not the flower.
    Therefore accept the one and reject the other. "

    World Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun Kung Fu Association
    Southern Shaolin Kung Fu Global Discussion Forum

  2. #17
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    After this encounter in may wing chun circles Yip Man was accused of being a trader to his system.
    I let this slide the first few times, but it is becoming annoying.

    It's

    TRAITOR

    OK?
    "Once you reject experience, and begin looking for the mysterious, then you are caught!" - Krishnamurti
    "We are all one" - Genki Sudo
    "We are eternal, all this pain is an illusion" - Tool, Parabol/Parabola
    "Bro, you f***ed up a long time ago" - Kurt Osiander

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  3. #18
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    Andrew,
    Although I see your point many of Yip Man's contemporaries did consider him a traitor they also thought he traded in his Chan Wah Shun wing chun for Leung Bik TWC so that both uses are applicable in this particular instance.
    Tony Jacobs

    ng doh luk mun fa kin kwan

    "...Therefore the truly great man dwells on what is real
    and not what is on the surface,
    On the fruit and not the flower.
    Therefore accept the one and reject the other. "

    World Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun Kung Fu Association
    Southern Shaolin Kung Fu Global Discussion Forum

  4. #19
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    Come on, Tony, you meant "traitor", didn't you?
    Last edited by anerlich; 07-08-2010 at 09:55 PM.
    "Once you reject experience, and begin looking for the mysterious, then you are caught!" - Krishnamurti
    "We are all one" - Genki Sudo
    "We are eternal, all this pain is an illusion" - Tool, Parabol/Parabola
    "Bro, you f***ed up a long time ago" - Kurt Osiander

    WC Academy BJJ/MMA Academy Surviving Violent Crime TCM Info
    Don't like my posts? Challenge me!

  5. #20
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    How could you have 3 center lines? I was taught that if I stuck my arms directly out in front of my shoulders, the space between them is my center line. Say arm pit to arm pit. If you just keep it simple, it is easier to learn because it is easier to teach.

  6. #21
    simple works, its the 'space' around the line thats our focus. The line is simply a reference point.
    the 'gates' are meant to be areas we associate force to move through. We dont stay in the middle of opponents lines of force apex ...where to move, timing, distance becomes the goal. Our line gives us the reference point to judge the line of force. Right,Left, crossing the line. Our chi-sao takes on this role playing for mutual development.

    If you adopt 'sticky' attached wrist bs ...you wont see the spatial gates.
    Last edited by k gledhill; 07-08-2010 at 11:02 PM.

  7. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by chusauli View Post
    In Yip Man WCK, we say that at a distance, the shoulder is the centerline.

    In the pole, we use the shoulder lines extensively.


    Can you explain this please because I practice Ip Man Lineage Ving Tsun and I've never hard this before.

    GH

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Graham H View Post
    Can you explain this please because I practice Ip Man Lineage Ving Tsun and I've never hard this before.

    GH
    Hi Graham,

    May Yat wrote in his Kuen Kuit book, "Juk San Ye, Bok Wei Ng" (When in side body, shoulder becomes the centerline).

    I interpreted and consulted with some of my then Si Hing and Si Suk and got the interpretation it is when you are facing from afar or distance, the shoulder line becomes the centerline - this is used in the 6.5 point pole.

    Perhaps some of the Moy Yat people can explain it better. I would be up to learn more.

  9. #24
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    The Leung Bik story may be fictional.

    If so, what would Yip Man be a traitor of?

  10. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Ultimatewingchun View Post
    WANT TO MAKE A THREAD OUT OF THIS:


    I have found that the use of CENTERLINE principles enhances the boxing that I use...

    and by using boxing in conjunction with the CENTERLINE principles....my wing chun is enhanced.

    In the standup striking/kicking game, that is.

    Boxing from long range (aided and abetted by boxing type footwork and long range kicks)...gets me to close range....where wing chun takes the ball....

    until if and when a clinch comes into play...then it's wrestling and some Muay Thai....and yes, possibly mixed with wing chun if some separation takes place...

    and/or some boxing hooks, uppercuts, and dirty boxing (hold and strike)...which is clearly a close cousin to wing chun simultaneous block and strike at close range anyway.

    AND BY CENTERLINE PRINCIPLES I MEAN THIS:

    My right arm is fighting his left for domination and control of the right shoulder line...and my left arm is fighting his right for domination and control of my left shoulder line...

    and at very close range....these shoulder lines are given up and the MAIN CENTERLINE (down the middle of my body) is now the PRIMARY FOCUS.

    So I'm using three centerlines....(sometimes referred to in their totality as the CENTRAL LINE).

    And when the three centerlines are used...quite a bit of wing chun becomes functional
    (ie.- pak, lop, tan, bil, jut, garn, bong, lan, huen, chuen, low heel kicks, and even multiple vertical fist chain punches.)
    ……………………………………………….

    FOLLOWED BY THIS FROM WAYFARING:

    Originally Posted by Ultimatewingchun:

    "AND BY CENTERLINE PRINCIPLES I MEAN THIS:My right arm is fighting his left for domination and control of the right shoulder line...and my left arm is fighting his right for domination and control of my left shoulder line...and at very close range....these shoulder lines are given up and the MAIN CENTERLINE (down the middle of my body) is now the PRIMARY FOCUS.So I'm using three centerlines....(sometimes referred to in their totality as the CENTRAL LINE).And when the three centerlines are used...quite a bit of wing chun becomes functional (ie.- pak, lop, tan, bil, jut, garn, bong, lan, huen, chuen, low heel kicks, and even multiple vertical fist chain punches.)"

    Hey Victor,

    Props for your explanation of the TWC central line. I know a lot of people say HFY and TWC are so similar, but I've never encountered that concept and didn't really understand it.

    Your description of the goals and range specifically make it really clear, better than anything I've seen posted on it before.

    .................................................. ..

    AND THEN THIS:

    ***THANKS.

    You know, it's only recently that I've started describing the central line in this way for myself and my students. So much can easily be lost or misunderstood in wing chun if you don't try to simplify the concepts and principles - and by that I mean just cut them down to the essentials.

    There's more that could be said about the central line - but I think that the "three centerlines" way of describing it hits all of the most important bases.
    ***SO TONY JACOBS... how would you relate what you wrote in post#16 to the above?

    What's different? What's the same?

  11. #26
    shoulder becomes centerline for using the pole simply because the concept of facing has to change. By definition there can only be one center of an area, therefore only one centerline, other lines can be used for reference but they are not the center. Guess I'm just arguing definitions, the reference points by any name are a good idea.

  12. #27
    The pole always points at the opponent as you move around.....

  13. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Ultimatewingchun View Post
    ***SO TONY JACOBS... how would you relate what you wrote in post#16 to the above?

    What's different? What's the same?

    Well, I'm not Tony Jacobs, but I'll take a stab at it.

    From the historical standpoint, we've got out two separate lineages. The Hung Gun Biu Red Boxer line and the Wong Wa Bo Red Opera line. The split occurred, or existed prior to the 1800's, the details of which are probably lost to antiquity. In the Wong Wa Bo line, going down to Yip Man the way the information typically works is that you start with Siu Nim Tao and the go into some form of Chi Sao. In the Hung Gun Biu line, you also start with Siu Nim Tao, but then instead of going into chi sao, we work to understand Box Theory. (How this relates to centerline is coming)

    One of the key ways the Hung Fa Yi line can demonstrate this is in the opening moves of the Mook Ya Jong short bridge dummy. This starts by the practitioner reaching out to touch the dummy arms to establish Box Theory. This helps us to establish what is inside our space and outside of our space. Once we have established the box, we can move into the Bai Jong section. For HFY, Bai Jong isn't just the technique of sticking your hand out. It's the ability to establish the three centerlines for engagement w/ the Kiu Sao, which is where the discussion of the three centerlines begins.

    The HFY Saam Dim Yat Sin Centerline is a self reference check, it is born out of Hung Fa Yi's wing chun formula and HFY's 3 points-1 line theory. This is structurally how we learn to line up for the pieces to be considered correct.

    The HFY A-B centerline is how we establish engagement for outside the box. This includes pieces known as HFY 4gate/6gate Tien Yan Dei Theory which, as Tony pointed out, differs from Chi Sim/Animal style Tien Yan Dei. For HFY Kiu Sao Chi sao to exist it needs the individual components of Proper Engagement, Body Method, and Joint power. All these elements combine to form the proper engagement of the A-B centerline (or not if you miss a piece).

    The HFY Gee Ng Kiu centerline is an energetic concept, focusing on how to control both your own and opponent's center of gravity. It's useful both for determining how much energy is "a bridge too far" for yourself and where you can target your opponent's balance.

    Now to contrast those idea with what I've seen of the TWC dummy, they start 3-4 feet back and then focus on centerline initially as a range tool to measure the use of the TWC hopping entry technique with a harassing biu sao. This is altogether a different intention than what I described above, to a HFY standard we call this "floating bridging" because you're not really connected to anything when you jump off the ground. So if that's an application of the Central Line between you and the opponent, TWC Central Line and HFY 3 Centerline theory don't equate in that moment.

    Reading what you've written Victor you're using what you've termed the 3 centerlines as more of a facing tool for either a rule of "What techniques work in the range relative to my opponent" or "What does my facing support based on where I am at" not sure if its that or a combination of the two.

  14. #29
    "Reading what you've written Victor you're using what you've termed the 3 centerlines as more of a facing tool for either a rule of "What techniques work in the range relative to my opponent" or "What does my facing support based on where I am at" not sure if its that or a combination of the two." (Eric H)
    .........................................

    ***THE FACING TOOL, as you put it, becomes very pronounced - and yet more simplified - when I reach a close distance, and now want to face my main centerline directly at his COM and go to work.

    But from the longer ranges, what I'm doing with the concept of using my right arm to battle his left for control of my right shoulder line - and using my left arm to battle his right for control of my left shoulder line....is not "facing" in the same way as when I'm using my main centerline from close range.

    It's similar, but there are some big differences as well.

    Yes, they are a facing tool, that's true...but they are playing a much more involved game when I'm at a distance - because the extra space factors equates to more possible lines of engagement and more possible types of attacks (and techniques) that can be used.

    In other words, more can happen from here. Including combinations that include kicks and punches, more footwork patterns can be in play...but most of all - many more angles for various types of punches can be thrown...

    and at different speeds/ broken rhythms/stop and starts....which of course now means more possible timing issues will pop up...and different degrees of power on the strikes and kicks as well.

    There's a lot more going on at the non-contact range..........
    that using just one centerline will not address.

    I hope that makes my position clearer.

    So you see, I'm addressing time, space, and energy issues - and giving all three of them the importance and respect they require.
    Last edited by Ultimatewingchun; 07-10-2010 at 07:04 PM.

  15. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Ultimatewingchun View Post

    ***THE FACING TOOL, as you put it, becomes very pronounced - and yet more simplified - when I reach a close distance, and now want to face my main centerline directly at his COM and go to work.

    But from the longer ranges, what I'm doing with the concept of using my right arm to battle his left for control of my right shoulder line - and using my left arm to battle his right for control of my left shoulder line....is not "facing" in the same way as when I'm using my main centerline from close range.

    It's similar, but there are some big differences as well.

    Yes, they are a facing tool, that's true...but they are playing a much more involved game when I'm at a distance - because the extra space factors equates to more possible lines of engagement and more possible types of attacks (and techniques) that can be used.

    In other words, more can happen from here. Including combinations that include kicks and punches, more footwork patterns can be in play...but most of all - many more angles for various types of punches can be thrown...

    and at different speeds/ broken rhythms/stop and starts....which of course now means more possible timing issues will pop up...and different degrees of power on the strikes and kicks as well.

    There's a lot more going on at the non-contact range..........
    that using just one centerline will not address.

    I hope that makes my position clearer.

    So you see, I'm addressing time, space, and energy issues - and giving all three of them the importance and respect they require.
    Victor,

    That does make your position clearer. To reiterate your point as I get it, you're talking about a flexible rule set for how to engage each limb/side of the opponent at different ranges, taking into the consideration the tools and timing of each. Assuming I've got your point correct, how would/could that be expressed at the beginning of the TWC dummy form?

    Just as a comparison, I think both HFY and TWC demonstrate one key thing to support centerline much more closely than the other WC lines, and that's the knee function. In the other Yip Man lines (as i learned it) the dummy has more sliding footwork to make up the distance, where as HFY picks up the knee to move and engage the Kiu Sao and TWC picks up the knee for the entry technique. The two lines (Wong Wa Bo-TWC and Hung Gun Biu-HFY) do separate on what they consider the correct usage of the knee with centerline though.

    As I touched on before, it seems TWC uses centerline an imaginary targeting line for the basis of the hop in the entry technique which is a very committed motion. It cover a great deal of distance but doesn't leave much ability to adjust once you're airborne. That's the key reason we in HFY would call that floating bridging, for our Kiu Sao centerline to be born correctly we need to be able to engage and adjust with the changing engagement. This goes back to what I said above about HFY's Box theory, its part of how the Hung Gun Biu line defines the different reactionary spaces. Generally, we don't describe things as pre-contact to contact as you have above. Instead we discuss moving from Bai Jong Centerline to Jeet Kiu Centerline, making sure there's no time delay and that we can stay true (to our rule set) to the type of engagement that comes up. That's more of a tactical discussion though getting into HFY's 5 battle array strategy and gets away from the original point.

    This is a neat discussion, I like to hear the TWC perspective on things because they also appear to have a straight line back to the 1800's just inside the Wong Wa Bo lineage vs the Hung Gun Biu one.

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