The 3 Centerlines

[bennyvt]

I dont get the chan wah shun is wc and leung bik is TWC. They learnt off the same guy, leung jan. Talking to people in hong kong they say china does the wong wah bo stuff, talking to main land they say they are doing the leung bik stuff. Gwok fu talked about the changes he made to their teaching when he got back from china. Whether it was leung bik or just Yip man getting better we will never know. Things like the pheonix fist which is still in main land but yip didn't teach it in HK. The change of the garn sao in the last half of SLT. He learnt garn sao off chan wah shun as he was tall but only taught jum sao in hong kong as this was from leung bik and he thought it more direct, hand closer to target etc.
Only through WSL fighting did it come back to the system. With the WSL system doing both in SLT.

[Ultimatewingchun]

"As I touched on before, it seems TWC uses centerline an imaginary targeting line for the basis of the hop in the entry technique which is a very committed motion. It covers a great deal of distance but doesn't leave much ability to adjust once you're airborne. That's the key reason we in HFY would call that floating bridging, for our Kiu Sao centerline to be born correctly we need to be able to engage and adjust with the changing engagement." (Eric H)
.................................................

***AND ONE of the big points about the TWC Entry technique that MANY people just don't get (you know, like trying to talk about things they really don't know much about )...

is that the back foot never really leaves the ground.

The heel is lifted as you push off for momentum - but the ball and toe area of the foot slides across the floor - while the lead knee is raised up to protect the lower gates.

So it's not really meant to cover a great deal of distance, just enough to get you from non-contact range to contact. In other words, it's a way to "bridge the gap" safely....because each gate is being covered with a shield: the raised knee, and both arms (the rear hand at the middle gate and lead hand covering/shielding the upper gate).

Part of what William Cheung calls INTERRUPTABILITY. When you're not completely airborne, you can control, interrupt, stop, and quickly put the lead foot down in order to modify your positioning by changing your direction.

[Graham H]

Hi Graham,

May Yat wrote in his Kuen Kuit book, "Juk San Ye, Bok Wei Ng" (When in side body, shoulder becomes the centerline).

I interpreted and consulted with some of my then Si Hing and Si Suk and got the interpretation it is when you are facing from afar or distance, the shoulder line becomes the centerline - this is used in the 6.5 point pole.

Perhaps some of the Moy Yat people can explain it better. I would be up to learn more.

Hi Robert

Ok, Thanks.

GH

[Ultimatewingchun]

I trained directly with Moy Yat for 8 years. And he did talk about the shoulder as being the centerline when using the dragon pole (staff).

[CFT]

Moy Yat wrote in his Kuen Kuit book, "Juk San Ye, Bok Wei Ng" (When in side body, shoulder becomes the centerline).

I interpreted and consulted with some of my then Si Hing and Si Suk and got the interpretation it is when you are facing from afar or distance, the shoulder line becomes the centerline - this is used in the 6.5 point pole.

Perhaps some of the Moy Yat people can explain it better. I would be up to learn more.

That would apply for the pole, but assumes that from afar one would adopt a "bladed" posture.

I guess it is common sense. If we are "side on" then a line drawn from our spine to the opponent's spine must come through the shoulder.

[LoneTiger108]

I dont get the chan wah shun is wc and leung bik is TWC. They learnt off the same guy, leung jan. Talking to people in hong kong they say china does the wong wah bo stuff, talking to main land they say they are doing the leung bik stuff.

That's part of what I was trying o say way back. Leung Jan is the man. Link your family to him, mostly via Ip Man, and you're onto the goods as far as Wing Chun is concerned imho.

May Yat wrote in his Kuen Kuit book, "Juk San Ye, Bok Wei Ng" (When in side body, shoulder becomes the centerline).

I interpreted and consulted with some of my then Si Hing and Si Suk and got the interpretation it is when you are facing from afar or distance, the shoulder line becomes the centerline - this is used in the 6.5 point pole.

Perhaps some of the Moy Yat people can explain it better. I would be up to learn more.

You know I'm not from Moy Yat, but I think if you want to understand what juk san is, you must have trained it in empty hand as well as the pole. And I have said this before on conversations about the centre line too. Training the concept with weapons as well as the empty hands.

3 centrelines, gin (facing), pien (angled) and juk (side) san (body) methods. I think I mentioned before that this is why I couldn't grasp the idea of Pien San WCK in Kulo, as this to me is just the study of 'angled body' and not 'side body' WCK that was propogated. Side body WCK is a specialisation of the pole imho.

Then we get onto what constitutes the 3 centrelines in TWC, and I'm finding it hard to understand because I wouldn't have understood what the hell my Sifu was talking about had he not physically shown me! I think we may all be on a similar page here, but someone needs to start talking in trigonometry terms or we all are just guessing aren't we?

My first posture with the pole is definitely in juk san, and yes we use the shoulders as our base line. 2 straight lines from the shoulders to the tip of the pole creates a triangle, unlike the equallateral triangle experienced in gin san when you join your palms together in front of the body. Draw a line from your heart/spine to the tip of the pole and this is a centreline. This centreline projects from you to the opponent, and it can strike them anywhere. If you want to unbalance them, the whole structure of the pole must drive through their COG (which depending on them is normally NEVER in their centre!)

Aw cr4p! Reading even that back to myself and I think I've over done it...

Maybe this is something only diagrams can explain...

[anerlich]

Things like the pheonix fist which is still in main land but yip didn't teach it in HK.

A long time ago in a galaxy far far away I attended a William Cheung seminar where he explored the use of the phoenix eye fist in great detail.

Whether he learned it from YM is something else, it's not exactly rare or hard to come across, but it is definitely part of TWC.

[bennyvt]

some of his guys, gwok fu etc do it. I read that william did some stuff with lun Gai but not sure.
The side body things means when you are in a side body stance for several reason the shoulder is the elbow. seems simple. like when turned the elbow becomes the centre. There can be times when you have to fight in a more of a boxing facing and then the shoulder is your centre.
Maybe you should have askedand waited for an answer without making one up.

[Wayfaring]

A long time ago in a galaxy far far away ...

Let me guess. You were the Wookie.

[JPinAZ]

A long time ago in a galaxy far far away I attended a William Cheung seminar where he explored the use of the phoenix eye fist in great detail.

Whether he learned it from YM is something else, it's not exactly rare or hard to come across, but it is definitely part of TWC.

Makes sense to me, phoenix eye fist being a tool seen in many southern fist systems. It is also taught in HFY, and is seen in the second section of our SNT form.
It's got a lot of usefull uses where a regular 'flat' fist might not fit as well.

[anerlich]

Let me guess. You were the Wookie.

At least I wasn't Jar Jar Binks or C3PO

[Wayfaring]

Makes sense to me, phoenix eye fist being a tool seen in many southern fist systems. It is also taught in HFY, and is seen in the second section of our SNT form.
It's got a lot of usefull uses where a regular 'flat' fist might not fit as well.

Well it certainly works in grappling getting the RNC when people are grabbing onto anything they can like fingers to prevent something from encircling their neck.

[LoneTiger108]

some of his guys, gwok fu etc do it. I read that william did some stuff with lun Gai but not sure.
The side body things means when you are in a side body stance for several reason the shoulder is the elbow. seems simple. like when turned the elbow becomes the centre. There can be times when you have to fight in a more of a boxing facing and then the shoulder is your centre.
Maybe you should have askedand waited for an answer without making one up.

Being so simple, are you saying that what I suggested isn't simple?

"3 centrelines, gin (facing), pien (angled) and juk (side) san (body) methods."

As for the Phoenix Eye, I agree that it's common in most southern styles, so in a sense it's not a specific Wing Chun technique at all, BUT it IS in Wing Chun.

Can anyone share with us WHY it's so common??!!

[LSWCTN1]

A long time ago in a galaxy far far away I attended a William Cheung seminar where he explored the use of the phoenix eye fist in great detail.

Whether he learned it from YM is something else, it's not exactly rare or hard to come across, but it is definitely part of TWC.

it's alsoa part of the Ng Chun Hong curriculum

Hi Graham,

May Yat wrote in his Kuen Kuit book, "Juk San Ye, Bok Wei Ng" (When in side body, shoulder becomes the centerline).

I interpreted and consulted with some of my then Si Hing and Si Suk and got the interpretation it is when you are facing from afar or distance, the shoulder line becomes the centerline - this is used in the 6.5 point pole.

Perhaps some of the Moy Yat people can explain it better. I would be up to learn more.

are you talking about when the shoulder faces the opponent?

if yes i would agree, if no i would respectfully disagree

[anerlich]

Well it certainly works in grappling getting the RNC when people are grabbing onto anything they can like fingers to prevent something from encircling their neck.

True, we did it in BJJ class just a few days ago as a method of inserting your hand into tiny gaps so you can extract and isolate an arm.