This is what happens when you pull guard

[goju]

GJJ doesn't teach a standing key lock because actually grappling against resisting opponents teaches you that doesn't work.

lets see i did gjj directly under a student who leared from royce and we did said lock almost daily before we worked on ground . But of course the mighty dale franks knows all!

[Knifefighter]

how can it not lead into a throw? look at the distance youre at when your doing chin na.If you feel the lock isnt going to succeed you can abandon it entirely for a clinch or underhooks to go into a takedown

regardless of what they find the Gjj standing stuff to be what i illustrated can easily transition into a basic simple judo takedown that inarguably works

There are two main problems with chi na.

1- Since it rarely works, you have to transition into something that actually does work (as you alluded to above), and you have missed a good chance to use real set ups.

2- Chi na often ends up giving the opponent a better opportunity to either take YOU down or submit you.

[Knifefighter]

lets see i did gjj directly under a student who leared from royce and we did said lock almost daily before we worked on ground . But of course the mighty dale franks knows all!

Really? Which student was that? Because I would have known him since I trained at the Gracie academy for 8 years with Royce. BTW, in that 8 years, we never once did a standing key lock.

[goju]

There are two main problems with chi na.

1- Since it rarely works, you have to transition into something that actually does work (as you alluded to above), and you have missed a good chance to use real set ups.

2- Chi na often ends up giving the opponent a better opportunity to either take YOU down or submit you.

A.the transition wouldnt be hardgiven where youre at.

B. theres nothing wrong with transitioning in chin na you dont have to wildy try to grab someones arms to yank on it. like with everything else if it fails quickly work off of it for something else

[goju]

Really? Which student was that? Because I would have known him since I trained at the Gracie academy for 8 years with Royce. BTW, in that 8 years, we never once did a standing key lock.

i knew him only by griff he studied under royce and jonathon krauss( krautch?) and was a brown belt. royce evens topped by for a seminar while i was at that school

[goju]

well im done with lunch ill be back later

[Knifefighter]

i knew him only by griff he studied under royce and jonathon krauss( krautch?) and was a brown belt. royce evens topped by for a seminar while i was at that school

Royce has no instructor named griff in Colorado. Sounds like you got tricked.

[goju]

Royce has no instructor named griff in Colorado. Sounds like you got tricked.

Bearing in mind that griff could be his nick name( beats me never asked) your statement would be ridiculous as it would imply first that t'sko ,which is a very acclaimed mma gym would hire frauds, second guys like alvin robinson and other professional competitors would train with a fraud and third royce would personally promote a frauds students to higher belts.

basically youre saying that a bunch of well known and respected people in the MMA scene are scamming people and are imcompetent enough not to be aware of someones backround.

i laugh at you short stuff i really do.

now if you will excuse me im gonna go get a lift in .

ciao

[Knifefighter]

Bearing in mind that griff could be his nick name( beats me never asked) your statement would be ridiculous as it would imply first that t'sko ,which is a very acclaimed mma gym would hire frauds, second guys like alvin robinson and other professional competitors would train with a fraud and third royce would personally promote a frauds students to higher belts.

If they were teaching you standing key locks, they were frauds. Of course that would explain why you know nothing of grappling.

But feel free to prove me wrong by showing your chi na takedowns in that tourney coming up in a couple of weeks.

Or course, we all no emo-boy would never actually enter a competitive arena where there are opponents going full force against him.

[goju]

If they were teaching you standing key locks, they were frauds. Of course that would explain why you know nothing of grappling.

Nope they were just following the standard GJJ self defense locks that are taught at that brand of schools but go ahead and call and assortment of respected people who have done more in their competitive and coaching careers than you could ever dream of frauds. it does well for your image.

Or course, we all no emo-boy would never actually enter a competitive arena where there are opponents going full force against him.

Hmmmmmmm my memory may be fading since as im getting older but who was the cranky geriatric who has challenged dozens of people on here to matches over the years and never shows up? Whos the one who claimed that they and i quote "only fight like they do in the streets" but had a vid posted of himself engaging in the lightest sparring match the world has ever seen in some park? Who was the one who continually asks people to post evidence of their competitions but has little proof of their own what was it again ? 100 or 200 plus fights?

You're right tiny everyones a fraud but you

[monji112000]

lets see i did gjj directly under a student who leared from royce and we did said lock almost daily before we worked on ground . But of course the mighty dale franks knows all!

You are over generalizing "gracie" JJ.

You can't call what a student of Royce (which many argue as the worst gracie in skill level no disrespect to him at all). as the be all to end all of what you find at "Gracie" gym.

I know for a fact that Rolyer network, Renzo Network, and Carlson, and Gracie Barra all have different curriculum.

My teacher, who trained at Gracie Barra in Rio under JJ machado, Carlos, and know is affiliated with Gordo, does not teach standing locks. He has shown a few variation of a standing arm bar, that's it. I know for a fact that his curriculum is very similar to Renzo's. All "self defense" applications from standing are applications of Judo throws, which are a staple. My teacher competed and trained Judo in brazil. I do the same, try to emulate him and his path to Black belt. Just because it says gracie doesn't mean they are all the same.

I know of a few "gracie combatives and whatever mcdojo style " places.

[goju]

You are over generalizing "gracie" JJ.

You can't call what a student of Royce (which many argue as the worst gracie in skill level no disrespect to him at all). as the be all to end all of what you find at "Gracie" gym.

I know for a fact that Rolyer network, Renzo Network, and Carlson, and Gracie Barra all have different curriculum.

My teacher, who trained at Gracie Barra in Rio under JJ machado, Carlos, and know is affiliated with Gordo, does not teach standing locks. He has shown a few variation of a standing arm bar, that's it. I know for a fact that his curriculum is very similar to Renzo's. All "self defense" applications from standing are applications of Judo throws, which are a staple. My teacher competed and trained Judo in brazil. I do the same, try to emulate him and his path to Black belt. Just because it says gracie doesn't mean they are all the same.

I know of a few "gracie combatives and whatever mcdojo style " places.

im not here to particularly argue if royce was any good or if it is taught at every single gjj academy hell im not even here to argue if the lock was any good ( i dont even like it personally ) but its is a common move in their "street defense scenario" "stand up submission" whatever the h ell you want to call it arsenal

[jmd161]

nope it was that it didnt work against resistance, either standing or into throws....and since you seem to have plenty of time to posts photos of books but cant find the time to find clips of it working realistically we must assume they dont exist

Other than basic non resistance clips like are usually posted... you're not going to find chin na in any tournament or MMA type fighting. Small joint manipulation is illegal in almost every sanctioning body that has to do with any type of competition. Does that mean chin na is only small joint manipulation?

No!

Most styles of CMA have a small amount of chin na techniques in them... There are no strictly chin na styles. The closest would be something like eagle claw with it's joint locking techniques and even they're limited. I think when TMA people refer to chin na for take downs grappler's think along the lines of what they consider take downs, and that's just not the case. You can't compare chin na to BJJ or wrestling because it's not like either of those arts. Chin na is a set of techniques that are used in specific situations in TCMA. To compare chin na with grappling arts is not correct! Yes there are take downs... yes there are locks but, it's not used as a means to go to the ground or fight on the ground.

There are holding locks designed to hold or restrain but most chin na is to take the person down with follow up striking techniques or a limb break. Just like in grappling the effectiveness of the chin na techniques is in the set up and usage.

[Frost]

Other than basic non resistance clips like are usually posted... you're not going to find chin na in any tournament or MMA type fighting. Small joint manipulation is illegal in almost every sanctioning body that has to do with any type of competition. Does that mean chin na is only small joint manipulation?

No!

Most styles of CMA have a small amount of chin na techniques in them... There are no strictly chin na styles. The closest would be something like eagle claw with it's joint locking techniques and even they're limited. I think when TMA people refer to chin na for take downs grappler's think along the lines of what they consider take downs, and that's just not the case. You can't compare chin na to BJJ or wrestling because it's not like either of those arts. Chin na is a set of techniques that are used in specific situations in TCMA. To compare chin na with grappling arts is not correct! Yes there are take downs... yes there are locks but, it's not used as a means to go to the ground or fight on the ground.

There are holding locks designed to hold or restrain but most chin na is to take the person down with follow up striking techniques or a limb break. Just like in grappling the effectiveness of the chin na techniques is in the set up and usage.

shoulder, elbow arm and wrist locks are all allowed in MMA and grappling , the only thing not allowed are finger locks...so are we now saying all chin na is based on finger locks if not we should be able to see it somewhere in action

grapplers thing along the lines of takedowns and control positions that work against resisiting opponents, and when chin na advocates cant post clips of it being used in grappling/mma/or class sparring tend to think its not very practical

please show these hold and takedowns being used one on one, the only time i have seen them used is by police when they have superior numbers and have already taken the opponent down, limited his movement and pick him up with the holds...i cant remember eeing one clip of china na being used in a pressure situation one on one..can you?

[Frost]

im not here to particularly argue if royce was any good or if it is taught at every single gjj academy hell im not even here to argue if the lock was any good ( i dont even like it personally ) but its is a common move in their "street defense scenario" "stand up submission" whatever the h ell you want to call it arsenal

you seemed to be argueing look look the graices and BJJ teach this stuff so there must be a use for it....what we said was that outside the strict GJJ school (maybe only torrence i dont know) no one else really teaches them because they are low percentage...like all standing locks

you have someone who trained with royce for years (not someone who claimes to be an instructor under him) and various other grapplers telling you these things are low percentage and useless, doesnt that tell you something?