Chain punching

[Liddel]

Hey good on you for posting something, not getting on the hate wagon, but here are my thoughts...

This video helps to explain how Wing Chun chain punching is actually done and the proper way to develop it.

This is vauge , your developing timing more so than speed and power IMO and i think this is extremely similar to un co operative chi sau ergo Gor sau and further on...luk Sau. noting new.

All to often, people try to use pure speed and muscle and just simply blitz the non-confrontational opponent.

My major prob with people using it as a blast, is they become all arms and dont use the body. No horse no kung fu. Blasting people and staying on the offensive keeping the initative and momentum is extremely useful if done right...

However there are pitfalls which is why in VT we have the saying... "If your greedy with punches mind your empty space"

But realistically people do fight back.

For anyone serious about MA's, no need to mention ..

Attacking done right is not a numbers game where you throw 10 attacks and hope 2 to 3 will land

I doubt thats what people are attempting even with the examples ive seen on youtube. IMO people focus to much on the chain punches primary function 'the punch attack'. They neglect the forearm bridge control on the return, the elbow protection the shoulder movement and constant angle change.

What your explaining in the vid is IMO not achieving what you set out to discuss (well at least in the title anyway)

Chuck some 6oz's and a face cage and make a new vid showing sparring.

On another note....

we learn 'dont attack the castle, attack the walls';
meaning we shouldnt go headhunting without checking the arms. in our vt we dont trade hits.

Im curious how this blends with the idea of not chasing hands... ?
i only ask because i use the idea ' dont chase hands...attack the body and the hands will follow'

Every time i attack my sparring partners head he has to react and evasion response aside, bridge or body contact is always the result.

DREW

[air]

Thanks for sharing the video, I like the flow training.

[HumbleWCGuy]

got bored, did a video on how to develop chain punching....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jJRLK_4zy10

"Chain punching," rolling fits over the top one after the other, is trash as you pointed out. I think that there are better options if you just want to string some straight punches together. I tried teaching it for a while just because it is common in other systems and I didn't want to ignore it. However, the utter lack of power makes it unworkable outside of TCMA points tournaments.

IMO what are pointing out is that it is rolling (pedaling) as a motion that happens in the chain puching that counts and not "punching" I think that the reactionary rolling/chaining over the top (as a counter) is one realistic way to go and you seem to be expressing that in your video. Embedded in your demonstration was also the idea of just throwing combination or chains of Wing Chun techniques using the rolling motion and not so much punches. As the hands roll in that motion anything can come out.

When we get to the point to where we have overwhelmed our opponent, we need to ask ourselves if I need to stop the chaining cycle because I now chain punching which is less effective than other options that have more authority.

[Yoshiyahu]

"Chain punching," rolling fits over the top one after the other, is trash as you pointed out. I think that there are better options if you just want to string some straight punches together. I tried teaching it for a while just because it is common in other systems and I didn't want to ignore it. However, the utter lack of power makes it unworkable outside of TCMA points tournaments.

IMO what are pointing out is that it is rolling (pedaling) as a motion that happens in the chain puching that counts and not "punching" I think that the reactionary rolling/chaining over the top (as a counter) is one realistic way to go and you seem to be expressing that in your video. Embedded in your demonstration was also the idea of just throwing combination or chains of Wing Chun techniques using the rolling motion and not so much punches. As the hands roll in that motion anything can come out.

When we get to the point to where we have overwhelmed our opponent, we need to ask ourselves if I need to stop the chaining cycle because I now chain punching which is less effective than other options that have more authority.

Is there a way to make chain punching more powerful?

what other punches do you use that generate more power?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Is there a way to make chain punching more powerful?

what other punches do you use that generate more power?

Sure:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=66qDn...feature=search


Before you dismiss as "just a movie" realize what I am trying to show you:
Context and Intent.

[HumbleWCGuy]

Is there a way to make chain punching more powerful?

what other punches do you use that generate more power?

In my system of Wing Chun we really don't use the "chain punch," we use what we call push hands which is a 1-2-1 strike or lead straight, rear straight, lead straight. It is more powerful because it doesn't roll over the top and allows the hip to add power. The hands clear to the sides rather than roll. As I said the "chain punch" can come up for us as when we are just rolling over the top but it isn't really a part of the system. JKDers like the straight blast which is a different animal all together from the chain punch (albeit based on the chain punch).

[YungChun]

There's no "chain punch".. There is a punch, or multiple punches... There is a flow a mechanic, a way to generate power and initiate contact.

The punch itself is at the core of Wing Chun.

But in the context used it's like Chain Punching is a "thing to do" or how you fight..

This mentality is what results in a robotic and fixated expression that tends not to adapt, listen or change..

[t_niehoff]

In my system of Wing Chun

In imaginary WCK, you can do anything you like. Isn't that wonderful?

we really don't use the "chain punch," we use what we call push hands which is a 1-2-1 strike or lead straight, rear straight, lead straight. It is more powerful because it doesn't roll over the top and allows the hip to add power.

And that's not WCK. Does your forms have that movement, do the classical WCK drills have that movement? No.

It's because you don't know what you are doing that you can't use WCK movement like the lien wan choi (which includes bridge suppression).

The hands clear to the sides rather than roll. As I said the "chain punch" can come up for us as when we are just rolling over the top but it isn't really a part of the system. JKDers like the straight blast which is a different animal all together from the chain punch (albeit based on the chain punch).

I love how people don't use WCK movement but call what they do WCK.

[HumbleWCGuy]

In imaginary WCK, you can do anything you like. Isn't that wonderful?



And that's not WCK. Does your forms have that movement, do the classical WCK drills have that movement? No.

It's because you don't know what you are doing that you can't use WCK movement like the lien wan choi (which includes bridge suppression).



I love how people don't use WCK movement but call what they do WCK.

Thanks for adding the Larper perspective. What's funny tough, I saw one of Alan's guys use a lead hammer fist-rear hook combination that Alan claimed was "straight out of CSL playbook." Should I then conclude that Robert's WC is fantasy and made up (and by extension your WC) because he doesn't do it in a way that you have envisioned to be standard?

I have said on several occasions, that my WC is not Ip Man WC. My version of WC has been modified by a family over several generations to suite them and that is what I know. To be honest, with our low opinion of WC, I consider it high praise that you don't consider what I do WC.

[k gledhill]

tan sao outside edge of forearm , strike.
jum sao inside edge of forearm , strike.

[t_niehoff]

Thanks for adding the Larper perspective. What's funny tough, I saw one of Alan's guys use a lead hammer fist-rear hook combination that Alan claimed was "straight out of CSL playbook." Should I then conclude that Robert's WC is fantasy and made up (and by extension your WC) because he doesn't do it in a way that you have envisioned to be standard?

No, what you should conclude is that you don't know what is going on.

Alan and I agree for the most part about WCK and training. That's why he said on this forum that I am one of the few who know what he is talking about. He didn't say that about YOU. Because you don't. You look but you don't see or understand -- and that's because our perception is limited to our level of skill and/or experience.

I have said on several occasions, that my WC is not Ip Man WC. My version of WC has been modified by a family over several generations to suite them and that is what I know. To be honest, with our low opinion of WC, I consider it high praise that you don't consider what I do WC.

This demonstrates your low level of understanding. Yip Man WCK isn't a way of applying WCK -- none of the lineages/branches are. They are curriculum, various ways of teaching WCK. Different textbooks for the same subject matter. WCK is WCK. Riding a bike is riding a bike.

[t_niehoff]

tan sao outside edge of forearm , strike.
jum sao inside edge of forearm , strike.

You do know that when performing a tan sao (spreading arm) can make contact with either the inside or outside of your forearm, right?

Chum/jum sao means sinking arm.

[k gledhill]

You do know that when performing a tan sao (spreading arm) can make contact with either the inside or outside of your forearm, right?

Chum/jum sao means sinking arm.

why do you use a vertical palm in chi-sao drills from tan sao ? what part of your arm spreads as you hit with a vertical palm position ? When we do chi-sao do we hit with a palm strike directly forwards or do we spread off line then go back in and hit ? Or do we use the natural combination of the 2 forces ? economy of motion or go this way then back that way ?

A simple method to show wrong ideas is to feint an intended tan sao 'application' and see where the tan sao is relative to your jaw as a target....try it smarty pants. In fighting this is how I would prove the action, not the drilling, the drilling is to make it align for ...fighting from NO pre-contact, but attacking entry....attacking.

I think you confusing JUT sao [terence hand]

Why use a horizontal palm position ? it makes the elbows go inwards as you turn the palm...[same as dummy, tan & sidepalm, think its a 'move' ]
JUM inwards elbow is from the fok sao position, we use the elbows in and forwards to 'strike when the hand is free' upon any given opening of a bad tan elbow in DRILLS...iow the fok sao is a punch in waiting but , and very important but, always trying to make a strike with constant cycling strike alignment force....tan strikes , jum strikes [from the fok].

So when we FIGHT I have a pair of arms equally capable of striking in unison while attacking either flank or opponents arm angles with either arm leading.

Becasue each arm has now developed a natural forearm/elbow [low] barrier I no longer have to use 2 hands to fight the one I am engaging on the lead attacking action.

jut is a natural action of the chain punch dropping the lead 'spent' punch on contact or not ALONG the attack line ...[not lop =grab 'n' turn]

yeah the center chain punch has jut sao incorporated in every one as it drops down and
SINKS making a path for the wu sao to strike as a punch forwards..


imagine a pole being held in front of your centerline, if you want to use one arm as a counter pole, depending on the proximity of each pole/arm iow left arm is closer to pole ? or right arm ? which would use the forearm to deflect the pole away from your center
AS YOU STRIKE FORWARDS with same arm ? tan striking arm using the outside forearm as the vertical palm is used [v palm makes elbows spread away from line] OR...
the jum strike , using the inward forearm etc ....

now stay with me ...whichever leads the following will always be the opposite, iow the following strike will always compliment the other by recreating a forearm barrier, whether you strike or are intercepted along your striking attack line.

Meaning you can achieve the basic goals of attacking with every action, relentlessly along the centerline, chasing the opponents movements, not his hands.

I know you wont know the coaching methods because I dont think your information has gotten this one, if you did, you would never resort to VT's plan B ...using 2 hands.

your like a pig wallowing in its own c r a p....but ! pigs are smart so there is hope for you yet.



develop the ability to attack mindlessly with little thought or become a feeling dirty clincher ?

[Knifefighter]

If your opponent tries to grab both your arms then maybe he is a little stupid. When you fight somebody they have one thing in mind. To land anything possible on you they can. Ving Tsun is a tool to help you deal deal with this mess. There would be nothing more pleasing for somebody to try and grab my arms in a fight. It would make it easier for me to box there ears in....

GH

If someone grabs both your arms in an over under, double under, or double over, you won't be doing much hitting. You, probably will be landing on your a$$ though.

[k gledhill]

If someone grabs both your arms in an over under, double under, or double over, you won't be doing much hitting. You, probably will be landing on your a$$ though.

he means hands grabbing wrists...a common event when I've had fights and used a extended lead. ie man sao ....Guys naturally go for it to stop getting hit...sometimes they grab both and try to control , in this event you can use their movement to control their balance...by-product of drilling in contact.
Bil gee has the elbow lifting and sinking to fight grabbed wrists , if the guy doesnt let go of the wrist he is in a wrist submission, if I choose to trap his grabbing hand on my wrist and use the elbow over his forearm he cant let go...He can, if quick, use a lop sao to counter out from the intended wrist lock..iow I pull in the direction my elbow points to counter his wrist lock on me grabbing...

But what you said is true too...