score one to the Norris for high-level diplomacy: makes everyone look / sound good...Originally Posted by rogue
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score one to the Norris for high-level diplomacy: makes everyone look / sound good...
Grand Pooba
In what fantasy world would that happen? When did BL actually fight anyone professionally, point or otherwise.being that chuck was a glorified point fighter i have no doubt lee or anyone slightly skilled could have went through him with ease
Last edited by rogue; 08-01-2010 at 05:38 AM.
I quit after getting my first black belt because the school I was a part of was in the process of lowering their standards A painfully honest KC Elbows
The crap that many schools do is not the crap I was taught or train in or teach.
Dam nit... it made sense when it was running through my head.
DM
People love Iron Crotch. They can't get enough Iron Crotch. We all ride the Iron Crotch for the exposure. Gene
Find the safety flaw in the training. Rory Miller.
Resigned
all kidding aside, he wud certainly have given Bruce a run for his money in any capacity;
humungous the barbarian
Its funny you speak of fantasy worlds when you added a A POINT FIGHTER to the list of people
LOL i mean come on youre gonna put guy who didnt have any recorded fights by matching him up with another guy who played karates version of tag you're it?
if we are going to take a certain stance on things than if the person didnt have any FULL contact continuous RECORDED fights then they might as well lump them all in with bruce as well.
youre either an actual fighter or youre not there no grey areas
I am pork boy, the breakfast monkey.
left leg: mild bruising. right leg: charley horse
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show the quote please, because one thing Inosanto is is polite i cant remember him saying a bad word about anyone
And Norris actually completed unlike Bruce or Dan
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yep because we all know the point Circuit back then was easy to win...i love when guys that have not competed in anything pass judgement on those that havebeing that chuck was a glorified point fighter i have no doubt lee or anyone slightly skilled could have went through him with ease
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and since you have never competed in any enviroment that makes you....Its funny you speak of fantasy worlds when you added a A POINT FIGHTER to the list of people
LOL i mean come on youre gonna put guy who didnt have any recorded fights by matching him up with another guy who played karates version of tag you're it?
if we are going to take a certain stance on things than if the person didnt have any FULL contact continuous RECORDED fights then they might as well lump them all in with bruce as well.
youre either an actual fighter or youre not there no grey areas
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lol one of those was a demo with full gear against a student and doesnt elong on the same page as the other two
on a side note benny would have killed him
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I've seen a roof top fight of his, but i would not have called that a fight in any sense of the word, chucks opponent hit harder in that clipI couldn't find any other Bruce vids that showed him in unscripted contest.
Kickboxing is that it didn't take off until the 70's. As far as I can tell, only the PKA (cofounded by Counte Dante in the early 60s) and Bruce Lee were pushing for full contact. In a sense, they helped pave the way for people like Urquidez to have better competitive training and venues.
was he a good fighter, we will never know, but no way you could judge him the same as guys that competed...even if it was semi contact the fact is they went up against guys they did not know without much protection and faced the prospect of real injury.......fighting your own students in full protection is not the same
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i might be wrong but if i remember rightly he demoed with one of his students, could be wrong though
i saw one on tape years ago, not sure if its on the net
humungous the barbarian
wow frost are you that much of an illiterate or were you just jonesing that bad to whip it out and measure with another poster on here you missed my point entirely? You know most guys your age buy a corvette or grow a pony tail to deal with their midlife crisis not waste their time on a forum bickering like a high school girl on the rag: for months on end D
But i guess not all of us can be intelligent or mature, or have a life, or hobbies, or a girlfriend, or even regular friends.... shall i go on? XD
My point was that it is ludicrous to rag on bruce for not putting forth any good competitive efforts and then compare him to guys who didnt do any better or at least have no solid proof ( like he did) of doing what is claimed.
A percentage of those people listed have fights that are all ONLY based off of supposed eyewitness accounts( often the witnesses conviently happen to be the masters friends or students) and nothing else yet they are being painted in a different light than Bruce.
Perhaps if some of you could retract your claws for a minute and use what little grey matter you have you would understand the contradictions in this thread.
You dont have to worship the man as a god or think he was the greatest martial artist ever but when you are favoring guys who have just as questionable backrounds and skills as he did then you are doing nothing but fan boy worshipping as well.
Which is ironic considering the direction this thread took was a means to stop the idol worship that has been attached to Bruce.
Yes because its easy to gauge how hard a person hits by watching a video clip of them punching .I've seen a roof top fight of his, but i would not have called that a fight in any sense of the word, chucks opponent hit harder in that clip
Also apparently you arent aware either that those point or semi contact matches do not allow a lot of standard techniques along with force deemed to be too hard ( oyama was supposedly disqualified from these comps because he hit with too much force) not to mention the fighting wasnt continuous of course and a person could turn his back to avoid being struck if he wished .
But yes you are right those clearly were fights LOL
pardon the long post old chap i just wished to shut you down quickly rather than have this turn into a drawn out v agina monologues episode i know you enjoy to have with victor and hard work
Last edited by goju; 08-01-2010 at 10:07 AM.
I am pork boy, the breakfast monkey.
left leg: mild bruising. right leg: charley horse
handsomerest member of KFM forum hands down
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Benny the Jet would have beaten Lee up, taken his lunch money and left him in a small pool in the corner of the room. If you think otherwise you've lost all credibility here. Benny fought over 50 full contacts fights against top notch well trained opponents. I don't subscribe to his doctored record and I know he has lost a few. But it is instructive to note that the only people who beat him were pro Nak Muay from Thailand, and even in those matches Benny landed some amazing shots, shots that likely would have decimated Bruce Lee (tm)
Chan Tai San Book at https://www.createspace.com/4891253
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they were more like fights than getting geared up and trying it on with actorswow frost are you that much of an illiterate or were you just jonesing that bad to whip it out and measure with another poster on here you missed my point entirely? You know most guys your age buy a corvette or grow a pony tail to deal with their midlife crisis not waste their time on a forum bickering like a high school girl on the rag: for months on end D
But i guess not all of us can be intelligent or mature, or have a life, or hobbies, or a girlfriend, or even regular friends.... shall i go on? XD
My point was that it is ludicrous to rag on bruce for not putting forth any good competitive efforts and then compare him to guys who didnt do any better or at least have no solid proof ( like he did) of doing what is claimed.
A percentage of those people listed have fights that are all ONLY based off of supposed eyewitness accounts( often the witnesses conviently happen to be the masters friends or students) and nothing else yet they are being painted in a different light than Bruce.
Perhaps if some of you could retract your claws for a minute and use what little grey matter you have you would understand the contradictions in this thread.
You dont have to worship the man as a god or think he was the greatest martial artist ever but when you are favoring guys who have just as questionable backrounds and skills as he did then you are doing nothing but fan boy worshipping as well.
Which is ironic considering the direction this thread took was a means to stop the idol worship that has been attached to Bruce.
Yes because its easy to gauge how hard a person hits by watching a video clip of them punching .
Also apparently you arent aware either that those point or semi contact matches do not allow a lot of standard techniques along with force deemed to be too hard ( oyama was supposedly disqualified from these comps because he hit with too much force) not to mention the fighting wasnt continuous of course and a person could turn his back to avoid being struck if he wished .
But yes you are right those clearly were fights LOL
pardon the long post old chap i just wished to shut you down quickly rather than have this turn into a drawn out v agina monologues episode i know you enjoy to have with victor and hard work
do you even know the rules they fought under back in the day, the guys over here fighting so called semi contact ended up with brocken noses and jaws knocked out teeth etc, you cant compare the rules now and then. And chuck had a record unlike bruce, yes it was semi contact but he still went and got in there with trained athletes and not actors
humungous the barbarian
they were more like fights than getting geared up and trying it on with actors
do you even know the rules they fought under back in the day, the guys over here fighting so called semi contact ended up with brocken noses and jaws knocked out teeth etc, you cant compare the rules now and then. And chuck had a record unlike bruce, yes it was semi contact but he still went and got in there with trained athletes and not actors
funny that alot of them say that but when you see the video footage from that t period the majority of time is spent posing in the elvis karate stance with the occasional chop chop launched only to return back to more elvis posing making it come off more like a very light sparring match than an actual fight
the clip speaks for itself they are pulling their punches and turning away. hardly a fight. there is a reason why knock down karate came about and it was because of karate competitions at the time werent realistic
If we are going to get stupid and reason who was better by what they did then lee's high school boxing matches had more full continuous hard contact in them then the karate comps at the time thus making his brief boxing venture worth more than chucks slap matches
i dont know about you but id have rather realistic training where they train and spar hard and continuous vs pulling attacks and striking the air and my money would certainly be on the guy who does or did the former rather than the latter.
I am pork boy, the breakfast monkey.
left leg: mild bruising. right leg: charley horse
handsomerest member of KFM forum hands down
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"He really wanted to kill me," says Wong. Most of what he used against Lee, says Wong, was defensive. Wong says he parried Lee’s kicks with his legs while using his hand and arms to protect his head and torso, only occasionally delivering a stinging blow to Lee’s head or body.
Wong Jack Man had struck Bruce Lee in the back of the head.
The point position for the palm chop after the 'gold chick single stand' is fatal and causes death sooner or later when sharply struck.
And I believe BL got this kind of injury and his bruise in his head led him to death. Perhaps it was caused by WJM's palm strike.
William Chen’s memory of the fight are more in alignment with Wong’s than Lee’s. On the question of duration, for example, Chen, as Wong, recalls the fight continuing for "20 or 25 minutes." He also said neither man was knocked down. "Certainly," he says, "Wong was not brought to the floor and pounded into a ‘state of demoralization.’"
Ming Lum, a San Francisco martial arts promoter, said that he didn't attend the fight because he was a friend of both Lee and Wong. Lum saw Wong the very next day at the Jackson Cafe, and Lum says the only evidence he saw of the fight was a scratch above one eye, a scratch Wong said he got when Lee went for his eyes as he extended his arm for the opening handshake.
Most JKD people think that Wing Chun is mainly about trapping when in fact trapping only makes up about 2 percent of the art and is only used if the opportunity creates itself. I can see no reason why JKD places non Wing Chun footwork with Wing Chun hands, something that defies the point of the Wing Chun elbow position and power generation in the first place.
Bruce Lee, declared Wing Chun impractical after this match. Bruce's own account has him chasing after Wong hitting the back of his head etc and becoming unusually winded. For a start, why was he chasing after Wong in that manner? It's odd to use the Wing Chun punches and methods in a way they were never meant to be used and then complain they didn't work.
Next, Bruce claimed the fight took three minutes. Three minutes of continuous aggressive fighting would take the wind out of most people. From Lee's own accounts of this fight, let alone Wong's, it is clear upon examination that he had a lot to learn and did not go about things in the right way, 'at the time of that fight'.
Bruce Lee was so impressed with Wong Jack Man's skills that he wrote to WJM's teacher and requested lessons. GM Ma Kim Fung turned him away, But Bruce Lee found and convinced Shui Hon Sang, who was an older classmate of GM Ma. GM Shui taught BL at least two sets, Kung Lick Chuan and Jie Chuan (Jeet Kuan).
There is a 8mm film of Bruce Lee doing Bei Shaolin #5 or attempting to perform BSL#5. He paid someone to film Wong Jack Man who was demonstrating BSL#5 and then BL learned from that film. Bruce Lee then had himself filmed doing the same set but from what I understand the quality was obviously not the same.
If Bruce Lee won the fight as he claimed, then why did he adapt the fighting methods of the loser? Ever other martial artist studies the methods of the winner.
' I must point out here that the true reason Bruce (who was my student when he lived in Culver City and I was chief instructor of martial arts at Loyola University) started Jeet Kune Do was because he was unable to achieve instructor rank in ANY form of martial art.....so he went out and took bits and pieces and created his own.
I also have the first article he ever wrote for publication (for me when I was associate editor at Black Belt magazine). It was so poor we sent it back, an act that angered him to no end at that time. But once he moved here to get into movies and TV he realized he had no power ..... speed but no results. That's what he wanted from me.
...
There is an internal side to the martial arts....esp. the Chinese arts which later were streamlined by the Japanese who lost the sense of internal until ch'an came to Japan as zen and they saw it as the perfect paradox of internal skill and killing.......but it is not what most are being taught today. It all changed in the mid 60s when people outside the Asian communities began to learn about martial arts....then came the prostitution, phony rankings, made-up school names and everything else that makes true MA so difficult to find these days.
b (Ven. Dr. An Tzu; Thich An Tri)
'
By Dr. William Upton-Knittle
(Dr. William Upton-Knittle, senior coordinator of the UCLA Office of Summer Sessions Advertising and Marketing, was invited by government officials of the People's Republic of China to help plan fund-raising for a project known as the Dr. Sun Yat-sen Victory Memorial.)
Dr. William Upton-Knittle also taught the Developemental Psychology of the world renown Jean Piaget. He is also listed in Who's Who in America three times.
There was a strong Japanese influence in Bruce Lee, since his main sparring partner and closest friends was Taki Kimura. Taki Kimura, delivered the eulogy at Bruce Lee's funeral. Bruce Lee's style is called Jeet Kuen Do, Do, is a Japanese term for school, or path. Many people Jeet Kuen Do are unfamiliar with some of the higher level Japanese sparring methods, and assume Bruce Lee invented them, when introduced to them for the first time in Jeet Kuen Do. Even some Shotokan associations, at their higher levels, have some soft, and/or internal methods.
"Bruce Lee, and thus JKD was heavily influenced by Western boxing and fencing. Although the backbone concepts (such as centerline, vertical punching, and forward pressure) come from Wing Chun, Lee stopped using the Wing Chun stances in favor of what he considered to be more fluid/flexible fencing and boxing stances."
Most empty hand martial artists are unfamiliar with the boxing and fencing stances as applied to sparring, so they assume they are unique to Jeet Kuen Do, which is a mistake. "
from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeet_Kune_Do
Bruce Lee's martial background was not traditional Chinese Kung Fu, even his study under Wing Chun's Yip Man, was less than two years. Yip Man did not consider Bruce Lee a serious student.
Advanced martial techniques and energies, are based on a continual regimen of training lasting decades. Bruce Lee never studied at any school long enough to take advantage of this. Bruce Lee ended up spending much time 'reinventing the wheel'.
Any techniques in Bruce Lee's style were based on only his experience. Some have used Thai Boxing, and Filipino Martial Arts with Jeet Kun Do; but since there has never been any world class Martial Artist to have been produced by Jeet Kun Do alone, it is questionable whether any of Bruce Lee's self taught methods, are of any use to anyone else, except as basic self defense.
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