TMA inferior/Lacking?

[Frost]

said monkey movements. I saw them with my own eyes. It is stuff straight out of the monkey kung fu play book. I doubt that he knows monkey so I am sure he just made it up which is fine. Since you don't know any monkey kung fu, I am not sure why you are trying to comment.

I have seen a little monky kung fu sp maybe you could post a clip of it for us to see i would be in terested in seeing it?

[HumbleWCGuy]

I have seen a little monky kung fu sp maybe you could post a clip of it for us to see i would be in terested in seeing it?

Evans Jackson UFC 114? Rashad drops into a horse stance, leans over, flicks the jab, and goes in and scores a takedown. He does it a few times and it is something that he does fairly regularly. Both are pretty standard monkey tactics if you are talking about realistic monkey. If you are talking Paul E. Zink fantasy monkey, IDK. When I teach basic southern kung fu we teach a monkey stance and perform exactly the same techniques as Rashad. It's all about throwing the opponent off with something unorthodox, scoring a cheep takedown because they don't change levels with you. And back to standard tactics.

[Frost]

Evans Jackson UFC 114? Rashad drops into a horse stance, leans over, flicks the jab, and goes in and scores a takedown. He does it a few times and it is something that he does fairly regularly. Both are pretty standard monkey tactics if you are talking about realistic monkey. If you are talking Paul E. Zink fantasy monkey, IDK. When I teach basic southern kung fu we teach a monkey stance and perform exactly the same techniques as Rashad. It's all about throwing the opponent off with something unorthodox, scoring a cheep takedown because they don't change levels with you. And back to standard tactics.

just because it looks like a tactic you have seen used in monkey kung fu doesnt mean it is just a monkey tactic or thats where he got it from, changing levels under a guard is standard in MMA you cant say he uses monkey style when hes never trained it

One of fedors most used takedowns in pride was an overhand right into a high double or single leg, choyleefut guys could look at it and say hey thats sow choy lama guys might say its a kupt choy, but he has never done either of those styles

rodney king teaches his fighters in south africa to hit the upper cut with the little figer facing the opponent not the back of the fist so it slides up the opponents chest in close, looks like a pow choy variation i have seen, but he has never done choyleefut

Paul daley teaches a monkey punch on the ground, its a hammer fist with body weight behind it, the body movement and strike reminds me of the first move out of the seven steps of yungling, but he has never studied southern dragon in his life

if someone has never studied a style how can you say what they do validates that system?

[HumbleWCGuy]

just because it looks like a tactic you have seen used in monkey kung fu doesnt mean it is just a monkey tactic or thats where he got it from, changing levels under a guard is standard in MMA you cant say he uses monkey style when hes never trained it
as never studied a style how can you say what they do validates that system?

I never said that he got it from monkey kung fu. I said most likely he reinvented the wheel. Furthermore, it isn't a technique that I "saw," it is a technique that I train, use, and teach. Therefore, I feel that I am qualified to say the technique that he is using is indeed a monkey technique if I apply my taxonomy to it.

The overriding purpose of my posts in this thread has turned to point out that it is poor form to poo poo TMA when you see a lot of similar if not identical tactics in mma starting to come to the forefront. People can either reinvent the wheel (do it the hard way), or just ask a TMA guy and pick these things up.

The fact that you keep suggesting that I am claiming that Rashad is a monkey kung fu stylist is turning me into a straw man. If that is what you want to do to seem correct, then by all means do so and continue to live in your narrow world.

[HumbleWCGuy]

One of fedors most used takedowns in pride was an overhand right into a high double or single leg, choyleefut guys could look at it and say hey thats sow choy lama guys might say its a kupt choy, but he has never done either of those styles

Right and by my rational that is completely fine. The central point is that there are a number of techniques used in mma that are outside of the "Joe-Generic MMA Guy" structure. Where do you think these came from? Most of the brutal overhands that the Russians like tho throw are likely Kung fu of some sort, or Modified Karate.

When we start to peal away at these things and say, "X isn't generic mma, Muay thai, BJJ, Judo, wrestling, or boxing, we have to consider the alternatives either someone reinvented the wheel or learned it from a traditional style. Now anyone with experience in traditional martial arts and real-time sparring and fighting can look at traditional techniques in the ring and identify them is such irrespective of their source.

Next if we can identify techniques from "traditional" arts that have great ring success why spend so much time throwing a fit every time someone uses the word traditional which has falsely come to be a synonym with bad? If I want to add finesse to my kicking I go to a TKD man. If I want to add some versitilty to my striking I go to a kung fu man. If I want pick up some odds and ends about wrist locks, I go to an Aikido school. If I need ring specific advice, I talk to an mmaist or kickboxer. Your approach is, " I need some advice on X I go to the mma guy." If that is your approach then the best you can ever be is, " Joe-Generic MMA."

[Frost]

Right and by my rational that is completely fine. The central point is that there are a number of techniques used in mma that are outside of the "Joe-Generic MMA Guy" structure. Where do you think these came from? Most of the brutal overhands that the Russians like tho throw are likely Kung fu of some sort, or Modified Karate.

When we start to peal away at these things and say, "X isn't generic mma, Muay thai, BJJ, Judo, wrestling, or boxing, we have to consider the alternatives either someone reinvented the wheel or learned it from a traditional style. Now anyone with experience in traditional martial arts and real-time sparring and fighting can look at traditional techniques in the ring and identify them is such irrespective of their source.

Next if we can identify techniques from "traditional" arts that have great ring success why spend so much time throwing a fit every time someone uses the word traditional which has falsely come to be a synonym with bad? If I want to add finesse to my kicking I go to a TKD man. If I want to add some versitilty to my striking I go to a kung fu man. If I want pick up some odds and ends about wrist locks, I go to an Aikido school. If I need ring specific advice, I talk to an mmaist or kickboxer. Your approach is, " I need some advice on X I go to the mma guy." If that is your approach then the best you can ever be is, " Joe-Generic MMA."

because techniques arent the issue, training method and the ability to use said techniques are the issue

My approach is i dont care if what you do looks like this or that, please show me it working ......i dont care if you have a technique that looks like fedors overhand right (there are only so many ways a body can move) but i do care if you and the guys you train can use it like he does....otherwise just having the technique is pointless i want to be able to use it, if you have a way to train it and make it functional thats great

[Northwind]

because techniques arent the issue, training method and the ability to use said techniques are the issue

My approach is i dont care if what you do looks like this or that, please show me it working ......i dont care if you have a technique that looks like fedors overhand right (there are only so many ways a body can move) but i do care if you and the guys you train can use it like he does....otherwise just having the technique is pointless i want to be able to use it, if you have a way to train it and make it functional thats great

Then it seems we have no problem.

[HumbleWCGuy]

because techniques arent the issue, training method and the ability to use said techniques are the issue

My approach is i dont care if what you do looks like this or that, please show me it working ......i dont care if you have a technique that looks like fedors overhand right (there are only so many ways a body can move) but i do care if you and the guys you train can use it like he does....otherwise just having the technique is pointless i want to be able to use it, if you have a way to train it and make it functional thats great

Techniques are what define styles/systems. Do you think that someone says, "That aint TKD becaue they are using focus mitts?" Because training method rarely defines a system. Boxing which is known for it's training method does not become Shotokan because the gym lacks a heavy bag or maybe doesn't do plyometrics.

From the perspective of someone having the ability to apply something. Usually unless you go to a total LARPER school/gym someone there will give you some insight on how to train and apply there core techniques. You can go to any McDojo TKD school and they are going to give you some insight on how to deliver some snappy kicks to the head.

I still call what I teach traditional although there are modern training elements because the techniques that we use dictate it to be traditional. If I wanted to dumb it down so that it would be kind of half-a$$ed on the actual technique front focused almost exclusively on honing the conditioning, I would deem that as modern, but there again it is really the techniques or lack of that make the difference.