TMA inferior/Lacking?

[Dragonzbane76]

Saw this posted in another thread and thought it would be a good discussion.

Are modern MA superior or TMA failing in training standards.

Sorry to whom ever this was that posted in WC forum for stealing your thread.

discuss

[brothernumber9]

what are training standards and who standardized them.
what constitutes modern MA. What constitutes a TMA.
All these things are kind of ambiguous, so the question will be broken down differently by how an individual defines each component.

But I think I understand the context of the question, and in general the "standards" of how people train in what many of us would identify as TMA has dropped off compared to how the same TMA styles/schools trained in the 70's-80's perhaps up through the early nineties. However, although a fair number of schools and clubs are having to close due to economic strains, I think more and more that stick it out, are starting to incorporate or supplement thier "old" curriculums with separate and specific grappling and aerobic classes and some even full contact with the intention to compete in MMA type events. So except for the incorporation of missing components like grappling/ground fighting, more are starting to raise the "standard" again.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

Humans have two arms, two legs, one head. As far as striking goes there are only so many ways in which a person can strike. There will not be any new or innovative strikes created ever, what has been done is done. Training methods are what have come to define a high standard on if a technique works or not. If it works in combat, or a full contact setting, it is good.

TMA pretty much contain all strikes and probably at one time trained all strikes in a highly efficient manner so the person could test and use them. Law suits and the general pussification of the US as a society led to watered down, McDojo whatever you want to call it schools that focused more on kata, point and little to no contact sparring, and other such garbage that made once great systems half ass**ed shells of their former selves.

Grappling arts are the same way. In many Japanese Jiu Jitsu, Aikido, and even Judo schoools compliant techniques took the place of randori, so instead of testing in an efficient manner you have "grab my wrist, no the other wrist, now flip and tap when I throw you" BS.

This debate is the same as the arguing over the internet theory, even if you win your still retarded. There will always be crappy MA schools and good fighting MA schools. MMA is not some kind of enlightenment movement, it is simply a method of training that produces results in the area of fighting. Most TMA schools used to do this, and many still do. But there will always be those who say and those that do, and it's not hard to see who fits where!

[MightyB]

TMA is lacking "aliveness". That's where it fails. Matt Thornton of the straight blast gym does a good job explaining what "aliveness" is and how arts like boxing, judo, MMA, jiu-jitsu, san da, shuai jiao, and wrestling all use it to make superior martial artists. IMO - If TMA would incorporate "aliveness", it'd be a lot better.

[taai gihk yahn]

TMA is lacking "aliveness". That's where it fails. Matt Thornton of the straight blast gym does a good job explaining what "aliveness" is and how arts like boxing, judo, MMA, jiu-jitsu, san da, shuai jiao, and wrestling all use it to make superior martial artists. IMO - If TMA would incorporate "aliveness", it'd be a lot better.

simple formula: increased aliveness = decreased enrollment

[TenTigers]

is it me, or are there several threads here all saying the same thing? It seems every time I click on a thread, I feel that I just read it five minutes ago.

[Frost]

simple formula: increased aliveness = decreased enrollment

maybe maybe not

i hear what you are saying but over here kung fu classes attract a few people of a certain mindset, heck we hear on this forum pople teacghing 3 4 or 5 students, all the mma classes i go to are pretty much full, last class i went to had about 30 people on the mats sparring

[tiaji1983]

LOL. from my experience, this is a huge misconseption in TCMA. Not just by outsiders, but by TCMAs...

If we treat the forms as alive, they are alive. They have a lot to offer us. One movement can be 1000 things and 1000 things can be practiced with one movement. One movement can turn into any movement, and any movment can be used in any sequence. We train the form until 1st we no longer think about it, then we do the applications automatically, then, most important, the movements become NATURAL.
However, most TCMAs treat the forms as dead. They treat the forms as 1 movement = a few applications, follow up with this movement and this movement as in the form. That makes your art DEAD. Thats what gives us the reputation we have with other MAs and what Bruce Lee didnt understand, hence why he made Jeet Kune Do. He used a set number of punches, kicks, chin na, and shuai jiao, from different styles and made... something out of them... and that makes them formless, because theres no forms. BUT a punch is just a punch, a kick is just a kick. an example of the loss of effectiveness is his 1 inch punch. To do this properly, you should be able to do it from 0 inches. They train a specific way so thats how it comes out. If you learn the form correctly, you do not train the movements a specific way, and any movement can come out anyway...

[YouKnowWho]

If we treat the forms as alive, they are alive.

IMO, the TCMA solo form/drill training will need some modification. No matter how you train your solo form/drill, there is no reference for the "distance", "angle", and "feet position" between you and your oponent. One way to improve this is to mark your opponent's foot position on the ground and use that as your reference points when you train your solo.

[Frost]

LOL. from my experience, this is a huge misconseption in TCMA. Not just by outsiders, but by TCMAs...

If we treat the forms as alive, they are alive. They have a lot to offer us. One movement can be 1000 things and 1000 things can be practiced with one movement. One movement can turn into any movement, and any movment can be used in any sequence. We train the form until 1st we no longer think about it, then we do the applications automatically, then, most important, the movements become NATURAL.
However, most TCMAs treat the forms as dead. They treat the forms as 1 movement = a few applications, follow up with this movement and this movement as in the form. That makes your art DEAD. Thats what gives us the reputation we have with other MAs and what Bruce Lee didnt understand, hence why he made Jeet Kune Do. He used a set number of punches, kicks, chin na, and shuai jiao, from different styles and made... something out of them... and that makes them formless, because theres no forms. BUT a punch is just a punch, a kick is just a kick. an example of the loss of effectiveness is his 1 inch punch. To do this properly, you should be able to do it from 0 inches. They train a specific way so thats how it comes out. If you learn the form correctly, you do not train the movements a specific way, and any movement can come out anyway...

no they are not, there is no timing, distance or motion involved, hence they are not alive

[Frost]

IMO, the TCMA solo form/drill training will need some modification. No matter how you train your solo form/drill, there is no reference for the "distance", "angle", and "feet position" between you and your oponent. One way to improve this is to mark your opponent's foot position on the ground and use that as your reference points when you train your solo.

or you could just do them with a resisting moving partner, like you crazy chinese wrestling guys

[rogue]

Can we please ban the ridiculous use of the word "aliveness". Please?

Training without a specific outcome as a goal is training for trainings sake. If you're looking to be a kata champ then your training should reflect that, if it's to lose weight then it should reflect that, if it's to be a door kicker then it should reflect that.

Training for training's sake is something many, maybe most, people do as they find the actual training enjoyable. And while it's not a scientific study I notice those folks tend towards TMA. This doesn't make TMA inferior unless you use the training with a goal in mind that it doesn't support.

[IronWeasel]

is it me, or are there several threads here all saying the same thing? It seems every time I click on a thread, I feel that I just read it five minutes ago.

I know what you mean...

It's like Deja Fu.

[taai gihk yahn]

LOL. from my experience, this is a huge misconseption in TCMA. Not just by outsiders, but by TCMAs...

If we treat the forms as alive, they are alive. They have a lot to offer us. One movement can be 1000 things and 1000 things can be practiced with one movement. One movement can turn into any movement, and any movment can be used in any sequence. We train the form until 1st we no longer think about it, then we do the applications automatically, then, most important, the movements become NATURAL.
However, most TCMAs treat the forms as dead. They treat the forms as 1 movement = a few applications, follow up with this movement and this movement as in the form. That makes your art DEAD. Thats what gives us the reputation we have with other MAs and what Bruce Lee didnt understand, hence why he made Jeet Kune Do. He used a set number of punches, kicks, chin na, and shuai jiao, from different styles and made... something out of them... and that makes them formless, because theres no forms. BUT a punch is just a punch, a kick is just a kick. an example of the loss of effectiveness is his 1 inch punch. To do this properly, you should be able to do it from 0 inches. They train a specific way so thats how it comes out. If you learn the form correctly, you do not train the movements a specific way, and any movement can come out anyway...

no, this is EXACTLY the sort of misconception that has lead TCMA down the road to ruin: no move in any form is in any way like what it would be when you do it against someone else, for the simple reason that you are not doing it against someone else - as soon as you add another person into the equation you radically change the contextual demands on every level: reaction, visual processing, postural control, kinesthetic awareness, muscle sequence firing, etc.; doing a movement automatically in the air and thinking that it will just spontaneously manifest when you are fighting is the sort of silliness that will get you killed; if you automatically do it against an opponent the same way you do it in a solo form, you will have no capacity to respond to what the opponent is doing, you will be stuck in the "automatics" of the form itself;
form training is ancillary, supplemental, tertiary; it is a catalogue, an outline at best; to practice a form straight through for purposes other than performance makes no sense (with the exception of so-called "attribute" forms, like san chien, but that sort of thing in and of itself has nothing to do with fighting per se - it's a form of conditioning that you then need to contextualize properly);

better to do away with all non-attribute forms training and stick to practicing techniques against bags / pads and opponents resisting to various degrees; leave forms to performance and lineage identification;

[SoCo KungFu]

You know for all the talk about what is or isn't fighting and helps fighting or useful to fighting. If people were to just go out and fight somebody, half the discussion on this forum wouldn't exist. The rest would be nacho cheese and Brazilian women....