where "Alive" goes wrong

[rogue]

I just wanted to hear what Thorton's definition is of Aliveness. The good news is by his definition I train in an alive manner. Differently, but my training meets his criteria. It also doesn't seem like he's trying to recreate a real fight but just parts of what you might encounter. Each drill is pretty darn good, but each has an intentional safety flaw that keeps it from being like a real fight. Nothing wrong with that as long as you know about it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=imjmLWj5WCU

Nothing really earth shaking about what he's proposing, but surprising that people either don't do it or make a big deal about doing it.

[Frost]

I just want to be sure I understand you, are you saying that you and your partner are always using the timing, energy and motion to try to hit each other that you would in a real fight? Are you padded up, stripped down, working one step drills? How are you guys doing what you'd do in a real fight, without it being a real fight and the possible risks that go along with that? Or maybe you guys are just going for broke? Could you clarify what you're all doing?

aliveness is not fighting although fighting is by its nature alive, aliveness is the process you apply to your training in order to be able to make what you do work against a resisting opponent, rolling is alive although its not fighting, its simply the training process used not the end result.

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[Frost]

I just wanted to hear what Thorton's definition is of Aliveness. The good news is by his definition I train in an alive manner. Differently, but my training meets his criteria. It also doesn't seem like he's trying to recreate a real fight but just parts of what you might encounter. Each drill is pretty darn good, but each has an intentional safety flaw that keeps it from being like a real fight. Nothing wrong with that as long as you know about it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=imjmLWj5WCU

Nothing really earth shaking about what he's proposing, but surprising that people either don't do it or make a big deal about doing it.

glad you understand it better, its always worth listening to Matt

as he himself says in the video and in preson its not new and its not new to competative sports people, judo wrestling, tennis rugby etc but it was something of a pardym shift for some TCMA guys

[YouKnowWho]

How are you guys doing what you'd do in a real fight, without it being a real fight and the possible risks that go along with that?

You can train "aliveness" without taking too much risk. Here is one way to do it.

You constantly

- move around your opponent (force your opponent to move with you).
- deflect your opponent's forearm (force your opponent to response).
- push (not strike) your opponent's elbow, upper arm, shoulder, neck, side of head, ... (force your opponent to back up, move side way, deflect your push).
- shake your opponent's arm, shoulder, neck, ... (use shocking to disturb your opponent's balance)
- sweep/sticky/hook/scoop/cut/sharp your opponent's leg (force your opponent to shift weight from one foot to another).

Your intention is not trying to hit your opponent hard or take your opponent down, but to give your opponent a chance to feel "constant pressure". Since the push is safer than the punch, and the sweep/sticky/hook/scoop/cut/sharp are also safer than the kick, it should still remain a safe training environment.

My judo coaches have said out of all of the throws, pick the 8 you are most comfortable with using - one throw for each direction - and train them repeatedly.

Not sure how the number "8" came from.

If you want to train just a set of moves, it may be a good idea not to train "redundant" moves. A front heel kick and front toe push kick can be considered as "redundant" IMO. In the throwing art, the best way is to start from the 4 sides and 2 doors.

When you and your opponent both have right side forward (uniform stance), you can use your leading right leg to attack the outside of your opponent's leading right leg (1st side), You can also use your right leading leg to attack the inside of your opponent's leading right leg (2nd side). You will need at least 1 move for each side. Since it's difficult to reach your opponent's back left leg, also it may be too far for you to use your back left leg, you don't have to worry about those situations.

When you have right side forward and your opponent has left side forward (mirror stance), you can use your leading right leg to attack the inside of your opponent's leading left leg (3rd side). You can also use your leading right leg to attack the outside of your opponent's leading left leg (4th side). You will also need at least 1 move for each side. Since it's difficult to reach your opponent's back right leg, also it may be too far for you to use your back left leg, you don't have to worry about those situations.

You will also need one move when you are inside of your opponent's front door, and also one move when you are behind your opponent.

If you divide your throwing skill this way, you will need at least "6" moves to be able to handle all situations. You may need some moves when you and your opponent are in "cross stance" as well.

[rogue]

You can train "aliveness" without taking too much risk. Here is one way to do it.

You constantly

- move around your opponent (force your opponent to move with you).
- deflect your opponent's forearm (force your opponent to response).
- push (not strike) your opponent's elbow, upper arm, shoulder, neck, side of head, ... (force your opponent to back up, move side way, deflect your push).
- shake your opponent's arm, shoulder, neck, ... (use shocking to disturb your opponent's balance)
- sweep/sticky/hook/scoop/cut/sharp your opponent's leg (force your opponent to shift weight from one foot to another).

Your intention is not trying to take your opponent down but to give your opponent a chance to feel "constant pressure". Since the push is safer than the punch, and the sweep/sticky/hook/scoop/cut/sharp are also safer than the kick, it should still remain a safe training environment.

I'm all for not getting injured but I don't think you can approach training for a dangerous high risk activity with safety first in the training. It has to be there but if the training is too safe then you're not properly preparing yourself for the real thing. Honestly, it's a conundrum I've been trying to solve as injuries seem to cost me more these days.

[YouKnowWho]

The "fear" factor is 2 edges sword. It may scare beginner away. It may also give beginner false confidence. How much is the right amount is an art and not science.

[Yum Cha]

Indeed. My judo coaches have said out of all of the throws, pick the 8 you are most comfortable with using - one throw for each direction - and train them repeatedly. you should be able to use those throws instinctively, either singularly or in a combination. These are your bread and butter throws. Out of over 100 throw that I have been taught, 90% of the time, it is one of the 8 I chose. Same with bjj.

someone said it seems less likely this would be done with striking drills, but tyson may be a good example. As short as he was, he knew how to get inside of a man of any height so that he could use his bread and butter - hooks and upper cuts. julio caesar chavez became known for his liver punch. cung le has his scissor kick, etc.

More gold from Seven*

We call them Keys. The more you learn, the simpler it gets. For some reason, 8 seems to be the magic number. I figured the Ba qua, but....

[Dragonzbane76]

I'm all for not getting injured but I don't think you can approach training for a dangerous high risk activity with safety first in the training. It has to be there but if the training is too safe then you're not properly preparing yourself for the real thing. Honestly, it's a conundrum I've been trying to solve as injuries seem to cost me more these days.

It's a fine line to get the razors edge you want. This has always been the "edge" of training that everyone looks for to get the most realistic without blowing out your body. The thing is everyone is built different and everyones body can take different amounts of punishment. So this makes for different training for many people.

My thoughts have always been to get as close as you can to the real thing without debilitating injury. There is always going to be injury when going hard, you just have to know the right amount that "your" body can take and communicate with your partner during these times about the intake and how you feel and how much you believe you can take. and even then it's still a very fine line.

[San Soo Sifu]

My judo coaches have said out of all of the throws, pick the 8 you are most comfortable with using - one throw for each direction - and train them repeatedly.

Not sure how the number "8" came from.

For some reason, 8 seems to be the magic number. I figured the Ba qua, but...

I am pretty sure that SevenStar is talking about the eight directions; as in the eight points on a compass... N-S-E-W-NE-NW-SE-SW.

Since Kodokan Judo is a Japanese martial art in origin, I included a diagram in Japanese. I hope I am correct in reading SevenStar's intentions.

[YouKnowWho]

I am pretty sure that SevenStar is talking about the eight directions; as in the eight points on a compass... N-S-E-W-NE-NW-SE-SW.

Since Kodokan Judo is a Japanese martial art in origin, I included a diagram in Japanese. I hope I am correct in reading SevenStar's intentions.

I see. Thanks for the explaination. IMO, you may tran all 8 directions by using the same move or different moves. I like 4 directions training instead. If I don't train duplicate moves then 1 rep can give me 4 different moves, 2 reps can give me 8 different moves, and 3 reps ... So 4 directions will be no different from 8 directions.

[SevenStar]

I am pretty sure that SevenStar is talking about the eight directions; as in the eight points on a compass... N-S-E-W-NE-NW-SE-SW.

Since Kodokan Judo is a Japanese martial art in origin, I included a diagram in Japanese. I hope I am correct in reading SevenStar's intentions.

correct. one throw for each possible direction.

[rogue]

Wow, that's 360 throws!

[SoCo KungFu]

Wow, that's 360 throws!

We live in 3 Dimensional space so technically we don't have to stop there

[tiaji1983]

Boxers train one movement to counter one movement, ie, an example would be you throw a hook, and they lift the elbow to block exposing the ribs. You do the same move 2 times, then fake the hook and kick the ribs... This example is to show that if you train the same counter to one movement, your setting yourself up for failure because you will project.

I used an example about basketball in a previous post, 2 groups were shooting hoops, one practiced in real time, one meditated and pictured themselves making baskets. The one that pictured making baskets, made the most baskets. In other words sparring against an actual opponent is not necessary.

Keeping your movements alive means being able to change. Find the moves in your form to counter the counters. An example would be what if I do needle at the bottom of the sea and lock the opponents wrists, but he resists? Then I use fan through back. But then what if he counters with an elbow? Well he would have to be off balance, so grab the elbow and use pull down... etc. Also you never look down when you practice forms or fight, because your Qi goes down and your opponent has the opportunity to attack.

Pushing hands practice helps you feel the direction of the opponents attack, the amount of power, and allows you to learn how to counter it by feeling and softness. It also helps you root an attack. If the opponent pushes, you sink down, if the opponent pulls, you sink to the rear leg to stop the movement. Then you counter in the direction they want to go.

When all the movements in the form happen naturally, and can change with an ever changing situation, then your art truley is alive...

[bawang]

An example would be what if I do needle at the bottom of the sea and lock the opponents wrists, but he resists? Then I use fan through back. But then what if he counters with an elbow? Well he would have to be off balance, so grab the elbow and use pull down... etc. Also you never look down when you practice forms or fight, because your Qi goes down and your opponent has the opportunity to attack.

all i have to do is activate the golden bell field/pre-nullity sphere ,and your patethic taichi would be rendered useless.
combined with the sacred jade amulets and the power of inner lion seal u cannot posibly defeet me; the matreya smiles upon me. dare you challenge the dharma of the chosen one?

.... although maybe i wouldnt use magical charms on the grounds of fairness; as it violates the codes of the jianghu. that would depend on how much you had offended my temple.

i would still consider inviting the south mountain ancient immortals to possess my body and grant me superhuman strength and instant but temporary knowledge of every single style of martial arts in the world, since it is their decision not mine to grant me celestial favor, it is thus fair in the grand scheme of things.
i would open the earth gate but not open the heaven gate since i am a merciful man.

you need to play the forms more often and contemplate your metaphysical inferiorty and lack of martial knowledge. you do not deserve to even gaze upon the elder gods. you will never comprehend the beauty of the tao. ever. EVER!!!


wot r u wearing? r u sexy womans