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Thread: where "Alive" goes wrong

  1. #1

    where "Alive" goes wrong

    Since everyone's talking about training with "aliveness", I have an instance where I think it fails TMA and TCMA if people aren't aware of this shortcoming...

    Here's my 4 cents worth. It's very easy to fall into a bad style of kickboxing if you think sparring is just getting in there and pounding away. If you aren't being trained by a kickboxer/boxer - don't do that because you need someone to show you how to do that style effectively and you'll develop a lot of bad habits.

    What's better IMO is to train your technique spontaneously. In 7* mantis, we have ou lou choi, (or choi sum sau) my spellings off, I know, but it's the only name I have for the technique. Anyway, it's a pluck, control, strike all done as a single motion as a strike counter. It's like the basis for mantis, yet I don't think there's too many people who actually train it well enough to pull it off in a fight. So, I'd advocate that a person should train that move by having someone else just attack him using whatever - the 7* guy's goal should be to find a way to set up Choi Sum Sau. After a few weeks, train a diff technique, and so on until you're reasonably able to use a hand full of "mantis" techniques in a non-choreographed pressure situation. Then spar.
    Last edited by MightyB; 07-30-2010 at 07:26 AM.

  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by MightyB View Post
    Since everyone's talking about training with "aliveness", I have an instance where I think it fails TMA and TCMA if people aren't aware of this shortcoming...

    Here's my 4 cents worth. It's very easy to fall into a bad style of kickboxing if you think sparring is just getting in there and pounding away. If you aren't being trained by a kickboxer/boxer - don't do that because you need someone to show you how to do that style effectively and you'll develop a lot of bad habits.

    What's better IMO is to train your technique spontaneously. In 7* mantis, we have ou lou choi, (or choi sum sau) my spellings off, I know, but it's the only name I have for the technique. Anyway, it's a pluck, control, strike all done as a single motion as a strike counter. It's like the basis for mantis, yet I don't think there's too many people who actually train it well enough to pull it off in a fight. So, I'd advocate that a person should train that move by having someone else just attack him using whatever - the 7* guy's goal should be to find a way to set up Choi Sum Sau. After a few weeks, train a diff technique, and so on until you're reasonably able to use a hand full of "mantis" techniques in a non-choreographed pressure situation. Then spar.

    There are so many single hand motions in each style. Would you advocate doing this with every single one of them? Even if you did so for only the important ones it seems like this method would take forever. Agree or disagree?

    For example what if I wanted to train crescent kicks. Would I have you attack me with everything in your arsenal and I just do basic blocks with the only attack being my crescent kick? I believe this type of training is good for certain things but not for all. If I was trying to get in on you to throw you than I would have you attack me with your whole army while I tried to deflect and get into grappling range. This method seems to make less sense with boxing drills.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by MysteriousPower View Post
    There are so many single hand motions in each style. Would you advocate doing this with every single one of them? Even if you did so for only the important ones it seems like this method would take forever. Agree or disagree?

    For example what if I wanted to train crescent kicks. Would I have you attack me with everything in your arsenal and I just do basic blocks with the only attack being my crescent kick? I believe this type of training is good for certain things but not for all. If I was trying to get in on you to throw you than I would have you attack me with your whole army while I tried to deflect and get into grappling range. This method seems to make less sense with boxing drills.
    depends... how many techniques does it take to call it a style? I did mantis for a lot of years before I had to move and then I did Judo. What I learned in Judo is that everyone only has a set number of preferred techniques that they'll fall back on (this is also true for BJJ). So, even though there might be 100 techniques, you only need to be good at a couple for the different situations that you'll encounter. Figure out which ones you want in your arsenal and then train them spontaneously in situations that are as close to where you'd like to use them.

    Now using my choi som sau example - I'd allow my opponent to use everything against me and I'd use whatever I had to do to set up the Choi Som Sau. The Choi Som Sau is my goal so I'd disregard all of my successes until I hit that move. In the process, I'd learn how and when to use that move.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by MightyB View Post
    Since everyone's talking about training with "aliveness", I have an instance where I think it fails TMA and TCMA if people aren't aware of this shortcoming...

    Here's my 4 cents worth. It's very easy to fall into a bad style of kickboxing if you think sparring is just getting in there and pounding away. If you aren't being trained by a kickboxer/boxer - don't do that because you need someone to show you how to do that style effectively and you'll develop a lot of bad habits.

    What's better IMO is to train your technique spontaneously. In 7* mantis, we have ou lou choi, (or choi sum sau) my spellings off, I know, but it's the only name I have for the technique. Anyway, it's a pluck, control, strike all done as a single motion as a strike counter. It's like the basis for mantis, yet I don't think there's too many people who actually train it well enough to pull it off in a fight. So, I'd advocate that a person should train that move by having someone else just attack him using whatever - the 7* guy's goal should be to find a way to set up Choi Sum Sau. After a few weeks, train a diff technique, and so on until you're reasonably able to use a hand full of "mantis" techniques in a non-choreographed pressure situation. Then spar.
    aliveness doesnt mean sparring and doesnt only apply to sparring thats a misconception

    Aliveness as its being understood here involves the three I's

    if you follow the process rather than just using the name then you wont have the problems you are eluding to

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Frost View Post
    aliveness doesnt mean sparring and doesnt only apply to sparring thats a misconception

    Aliveness as its being understood here involves the three I's

    if you follow the process rather than just using the name then you wont have the problems you are eluding to
    Can you please elaborate?

  6. #6

    Thumbs up

    Quote Originally Posted by Frost View Post
    aliveness doesnt mean sparring and doesnt only apply to sparring thats a misconception

    Aliveness as its being understood here involves the three I's

    if you follow the process rather than just using the name then you wont have the problems you are eluding to
    Exactly.

    I just wanted people who haven't been exposed to "alive" type of training thinking that it means simply sparring because then we'd be causing a whole lot more problems in the TCMA world.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by MysteriousPower View Post
    Can you please elaborate?
    We're talking about Matt Thornton's approach. Here's an interview http://www.straightblastgym.com/interview03.htm

    He has some stuff on Youtube. Look it up.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by MysteriousPower View Post
    Can you please elaborate?
    Sure aliveness (at least according to matt Thornton the guy who most people point to when talking about aliveness) means working with and against timing, energy (real resistance like you would find in a fight), and motion.

    All these require working against an uncooperative opponent, someone who is not feeding you dead energy but who is reacting to you and making you react. If you understand this then even drills, pad work etc can be alive.

    The three Is are introduction, isolation and integration

    Introduction, for example this is the jab, show the mechanics, show proper formation etc or this is the arm bar from mount, show proper body control, how to finish (tight knees etc) and then get reps in like this.

    isolate it, work the jab on the pads, the opponent feeding you energy and motion, moving around you forcing you to react learn timing and motion, isolate sparring so just jab against jab, you limit the weapons used in sparring but you are still sparring, moving reacting of each other etc.

    With the arm bar from mount start in the mount and roll, if you miss the arm bar or he escapes start over. You can start off with reduced energy, say 50% and build it up as the opponent gets better but the key is to always have some form of resistance/motion otherwise it’s dead and essentially useless in a fight.

    Integrate it; add it in to your sparring and into your overall game.

    Step 1 intro should last minutes, step 2 isolate can last most of the class or you can keep coming back to it, step 3 is the end goal. His aregument is that most people in TMA are stuck at step 1

    But all drills in step 2 and 3 can be and should be alive. Hope that makes sense

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by MightyB View Post
    Exactly.

    I just wanted people who haven't been exposed to "alive" type of training thinking that it means simply sparring because then we'd be causing a whole lot more problems in the TCMA world.
    I sort of knew you got it when i saw that you trained judo...the sports guys do this without thinking

    the fact is Matts gym spends most of there time in step 2, isolated sparring from various positions is a big thing with him

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Frost View Post
    Sure aliveness (at least according to matt Thornton the guy who most people point to when talking about aliveness) means working with and against timing, energy (real resistance like you would find in a fight), and motion.

    All these require working against an uncooperative opponent, someone who is not feeding you dead energy but who is reacting to you and making you react. If you understand this then even drills, pad work etc can be alive.
    The very fact that something is required takes some of the aliveness out of the drill. What defines an uncooperative opponent? What is real resistance like you would find in a fight mean?

    "Find the safety flaw in the training", Rory Miller.
    I quit after getting my first black belt because the school I was a part of was in the process of lowering their standards A painfully honest KC Elbows

    The crap that many schools do is not the crap I was taught or train in or teach.

    Dam nit... it made sense when it was running through my head.

    DM


    People love Iron Crotch. They can't get enough Iron Crotch. We all ride the Iron Crotch for the exposure. Gene

    Find the safety flaw in the training. Rory Miller.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by rogue View Post
    The very fact that something is required takes some of the aliveness out of the drill. What defines an uncooperative opponent? What is real resistance like you would find in a fight mean?

    "Find the safety flaw in the training", Rory Miller.
    real resistance means the opponent is using the timing energy and motion to try to hit you that they would in a real fight, is it a perfect way of training...who knows, but its the best way to learn if you wish to fight with what you are learning.

    that is unless you care to share with us another method of learning that you feel is better...........

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by MightyB View Post
    depends... how many techniques does it take to call it a style? I did mantis for a lot of years before I had to move and then I did Judo. What I learned in Judo is that everyone only has a set number of preferred techniques that they'll fall back on (this is also true for BJJ). So, even though there might be 100 techniques, you only need to be good at a couple for the different situations that you'll encounter. Figure out which ones you want in your arsenal and then train them spontaneously in situations that are as close to where you'd like to use them.
    Indeed. My judo coaches have said out of all of the throws, pick the 8 you are most comfortable with using - one throw for each direction - and train them repeatedly. you should be able to use those throws instinctively, either singularly or in a combination. These are your bread and butter throws. Out of over 100 throw that I have been taught, 90% of the time, it is one of the 8 I chose. Same with bjj.

    someone said it seems less likely this would be done with striking drills, but tyson may be a good example. As short as he was, he knew how to get inside of a man of any height so that he could use his bread and butter - hooks and upper cuts. julio caesar chavez became known for his liver punch. cung le has his scissor kick, etc.
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  13. #13
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    because of movies people dont join kung fu schools to learn fighting. if u train alive ur not gonna be able to make money
    teaching mma can make a lot of money. teach kung fu the same way wont

    making reforms in kung fu is easy, but u need to give up any ideas and hopes of making a profit. thats the hard part.
    Last edited by bawang; 07-30-2010 at 09:46 AM.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by SevenStar View Post
    Indeed. My judo coaches have said out of all of the throws, pick the 8 you are most comfortable with using - one throw for each direction - and train them repeatedly. you should be able to use those throws instinctively, either singularly or in a combination. These are your bread and butter throws. Out of over 100 throw that I have been taught, 90% of the time, it is one of the 8 I chose. Same with bjj.
    This is probably why my Judo and my BJJ coaches like us to travel to other schools whenever we can. We get too used to the people in our own clubs.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Frost View Post
    real resistance means the opponent is using the timing energy and motion to try to hit you that they would in a real fight, is it a perfect way of training...who knows, but its the best way to learn if you wish to fight with what you are learning.

    that is unless you care to share with us another method of learning that you feel is better...........
    I just want to be sure I understand you, are you saying that you and your partner are always using the timing, energy and motion to try to hit each other that you would in a real fight? Are you padded up, stripped down, working one step drills? How are you guys doing what you'd do in a real fight, without it being a real fight and the possible risks that go along with that? Or maybe you guys are just going for broke? Could you clarify what you're all doing?
    I quit after getting my first black belt because the school I was a part of was in the process of lowering their standards A painfully honest KC Elbows

    The crap that many schools do is not the crap I was taught or train in or teach.

    Dam nit... it made sense when it was running through my head.

    DM


    People love Iron Crotch. They can't get enough Iron Crotch. We all ride the Iron Crotch for the exposure. Gene

    Find the safety flaw in the training. Rory Miller.

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