where "Alive" goes wrong

[tiaji1983]

lol

[YouKnowWho]

An example would be what if I do needle at the bottom of the sea and lock the opponents wrists, but he resists? Then I use fan through back. But then what if he counters with an elbow? Well he would have to be off balance, so grab the elbow and use pull down... etc.

From your description, you do have good combat knowledge. Not everybody know the "needle at the bottom of sea" can be used as wrist lock. The combo that you have described is very logical. You are right that your opponent's best counter to against your wrist lock is to bend his elbow, and then smash that elbow at your chest. The only thing is if you allow your opponent to do so, your wrist lock may not be complete enough.

Of course your opponent can bend and raise his elbow to release the pressure that you put on his wrist. If at the same time, you change your palm edge pressing from vertical downward to horizontal side way, you can still apply the same pressure on your opponent's wrist even if he bends his elbow. If your opponent tries to turn his body to release more pressure from you, you can change your palm edge horizontal side way into backward pulling (toward you) and force his arm to be straight. This is called "三把腕子(San Ba Wan Zi) - 3 continuous wrist locks" that already contain 3 changes just in a simple move (another reason that I love TCMA).

Not saying that your combo won't work, but saying that you may be able to continue your "wrist lock" and not have to change into "palm strike to the face" if you don't want to.

[tiaji1983]

Thank you sir for showing that not every movement has 1 application for me
Needle at the bottom of the sea can be a LOT of things. It can be a throw, a lock, a strike, It can be used for a cavity strike or in some cases to simply deflect a movement, or even can be used to break someones neck. Then if those movements dont work as planned, theres always another counter, and its a continuous circle until you either win the exchange or lose the exchange.

[Frost]

Boxers train one movement to counter one movement, ie, an example would be you throw a hook, and they lift the elbow to block exposing the ribs. You do the same move 2 times, then fake the hook and kick the ribs... This example is to show that if you train the same counter to one movement, your setting yourself up for failure because you will project.

no they dont you need to train with boxers before making such a statement, boxers train to evade and counter as quickly as possible, they are just as likely to roll under your hook and smash your ribs as cover up.
and i would love to see someone actually kick the ribs from that close in unless you are talking about a looping punch in which case he'd probably just hit you with a 1 2 and knock you out

[Frost]

From your description, you do have good combat knowledge. Not everybody know the "needle at the bottom of sea" can be used as wrist lock. .

really, it was one of the first things i was shown, along with all the throws and takedowns from the old yang form which included the fast fajing stuff

[tiaji1983]

Thank you Frost. I was using that as an example. I know boxes train bobbing and weaving, and they train to go around and under punches. But a lot of boxers, I guess I shouldnt say all cuz that isnt the case, but a lot of them train in a way where they see a specific move, they react in a specific way. I had friends that were boxers, and I seen the way they trained. I saw some that would lift the elbow to cover the side of the head when a hook comes in, and then counter with a left hook or a left cross. I seen boxers that would punch at your foot if you threw a low kick, I seen boxers that would bring thier hands up to the top of the head if they saw a jab coming due to habit with the gloves, and they would do those movements habitually. The point I was trying to make, is if someone has a habitual movement, you can find a weakness and expose it. I was not trying to get technical and say I am a boxer...

[Frost]

Thank you Frost. I was using that as an example. I know boxes train bobbing and weaving, and they train to go around and under punches. But a lot of boxers, I guess I shouldnt say all cuz that isnt the case, but a lot of them train in a way where they see a specific move, they react in a specific way. I had friends that were boxers, and I seen the way they trained. I saw some that would lift the elbow to cover the side of the head when a hook comes in, and then counter with a left hook or a left cross. I seen boxers that would punch at your foot if you threw a low kick, I seen boxers that would bring thier hands up to the top of the head if they saw a jab coming due to habit with the gloves, and they would do those movements habitually. The point I was trying to make, is if someone has a habitual movement, you can find a weakness and expose it. I was not trying to get technical and say I am a boxer...

boxers cover and move, if you haven't trained boxing or spent alot of time sparring in a boxing gym its silly trying to tell people who have what they do or what there faults are

everyone has theories about fighting and how they would beat boxers etc, until you spar full contact with one its just that theory, i thought i could just kick the legs out from under a boxer until i actually tried it. just seeing the way they train isnt much help...

For instance i could see the way a tai chi player trains and just think his hands dont cover his head ill just knock him out...

[tiaji1983]

OK your right, it wasnt fair to say "boxers" in my example based on my personal experiences with what I noticed with thier training, so Ill exclude that and just say some people build bad habits which can be easily exploited instead...

Either way my point wasnt about boxers, in general, it was about people's habits.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

OK your right, it wasnt fair to say "boxers" in my example based on my personal experiences with what I noticed with thier training, so Ill exclude that and just say some people build bad habits which can be easily exploited instead...

Either way my point wasnt about boxers, in general, it was about people's habits.

All fighters have weaknesses that can be exploited, the problem is, often times it is much easier said than done. Like Frost said, I used to think I could just kick out a boxer's legs and it was done, but that's not always the case. A good philosophy to live by is this, a style does not make the fighter, rather, the fighter makes the style. There are many paths to a destination, and it is ignorant to think only one path can get you there.

[YouKnowWho]

really, it was one of the first things i was shown, along with all the throws and takedowns from the old yang form which included the fast fajing stuff

Many years ago in Taiwan during the Taiwan Taiji Association annual meeting. The chairperson 師爵 (Shi Jue) knew nothing about Taiji. There was a discussion on "What's the application of the needle at the bottom of the sea?" Many Taiji masters gave their opinions, but none of them had mentioned the wrist lock application. One CMA master even said, "It can be used to grab somone's knee." I believe since the left hand position in some system of their Taiji form does not matach to the wrist lock application (left hand hold on top of the right wrist), many Taiji masters in Taiwan donot know it can be used as wrsit lock.

[David Jamieson]

Many years ago in Taiwan during the Taiwan Taiji Association annual meeting. The chairperson 師爵 (Shi Jue) knew nothing about Taiji. There was a discussion on "What's the application of the needle at the bottom of the sea?" Many Taiji masters gave their opinions, but none of them had mentioned the wrist lock application. One CMA master even said, "It can be used to grab somone's knee." I believe since the left hand position in some system of their Taiji form does not matach to the wrist lock application (left hand hold on top of the right wrist), many Taiji masters in Taiwan donot know it can be used as wrsit lock.

Truth be told, the greater majority of people that play taijiquan have no idea as to what the martial applications are, have never learned them and have been taught by people who also never learned any practical use for the martial art.

subsequently, it is still good practice to limber the joints, calm the breath and ease the mind.

[tiaji1983]

A good philosophy to live by is this, a style does not make the fighter, rather, the fighter makes the style. There are many paths to a destination, and it is ignorant to think only one path can get you there.

I agree with you 100%.

Its a shame people are learning it and dont know the combat applications, or even its a fighting art. But maybe one day all that will change. I even like to teach the elderly people the combat applications. The hard part is making people discover for themselves the applications so they learn how to disect the forms and make them formless...

[SteveLau]

Mighty,

The training method you first mentioned is good to train up sparring skill. I do not think it will take forever. The query by other members of the method stabs on the problem of the complexity of a style - too many techniques. Perhaps too complicated. These styles have more than 50 unarmed hand sets. So whatever training method they use is likely to be difficult to succeed in helping students to master the skill.




KC
Hong Kong

[HumbleWCGuy]

I think that there is a problem when it come to competitive striking. There is a tendency to ramp the conditioning and contact element of the class far to quickly in order to get a guy in the ring.

I think that it gets Even worse when a guy with good grappling skills wants to do mma. He gets thrown into the "fight" class, but he really should be in the basic striking class.

[Frost]

I think that there is a problem when it come to competitive striking. There is a tendency to ramp the conditioning and contact element of the class far to quickly in order to get a guy in the ring.

I think that it gets Even worse when a guy with good grappling skills wants to do mma. He gets thrown into the "fight" class, but he really should be in the basic striking class.

this is a general statement and whilst true in some schools most of the good ones will not do this, we have several national level judo guys comeand try out at the gym i train at, they are all put in the beginner striking class and told that before they compete pro MMA they must have 3 or 4 K1 or thai matches, even the amature guys have to have at least sparred full contact in the gym with the pro thai guys before they are allowed to fight. Its the same for stand up guys they must do a few grappling comps before doing MMA.