chamber hands in Sil Lim Tao

[Heisenberg]

The following is a question that I've been pondering lately, that I'd like to hear others input on:

Why do we chamber at our sides, near the floating ribs, in Sil Lim Tao? Surely this was a conscious decision in the design of the 1st form. But, we don't otherwise advocate parking a hand so far outside of our center. Here are some thoughts that I've had:

1. There are times when a hand might end up there, for example after a pulling lop sau. That hand should then seek to return to center.

-- I find this unlikely to be the reason why this chamber exists in the form. While maintaining center is certainly an important lesson in Sil Lim Tao, regaining center after it is lost seems more like a concept from a latter form.

2. If shifting were not omitted from the 1st form, then a covering hand in center could easily be off of the line connecting my central axis to my opponents. As I shift back my hand would re-acquire this line.

-- Again, this seems an unlikely reason. I post it here just because it was part of my thinking process. Not because I think it may be the answer that I'm seeking.

3. Because Sil Lim Tao is broken down such that only one hand is executing a technique at a time, this chamber could be just intended to keep the other hand out of the way (otherwise this other hand would need to be in motion to avoid interference).

-- This seems like a reasonable explanation, but I find that I am entirely unsure if it is the true explanation.

If anyone has any feedback, I would appreciate hearing what you think. Particularly if you think that the reason lies entirely outside of the 3 above possibilities.

[Eric_H]

Hello,

I learned that the elbows being drawn back was an expression of "Jiang Dai Lik" or elbow sinking/carrying capacity. However, that is more of an energetic concept than a structural one. Structurally, i think it has more to do with what points are being protected as many points in the mid-rib area and armpit aren't very fun to be hit in.

[k gledhill]

door # 3 ! each hand is drawn and individually learns to intersect the centerline in front of the sternum with the wrist, then the elbow.

Drawing isnt done while fighting.

The height of the hands is more important, so they travel from the same plane to intersect the line, creating forearm intercepting angles of tan/jum/wu, corresponding to the wrist/elbow of each arm.Elbows move to the line like pendulums, hands are held high by the sides before the arm/elbow, moves to the line.

Each hand starts from the x'ed wu sao position in the beginning from side drawn position then to x the line with wu sao wrist then bring elbow to line ...etc...

Then Man sao....controlling the elbow while the arm is already extended along the centerline. Tan/jum

Everything is based on making a punch along the line, intersecting it, using the natural intercepting strike lines at angles to the opponent.

The way we use the centerline starts from a drawn position in a basic little set.

the opening moves of the forms arent high / low gaun sao its wu sao / man sao along the line before every form to create a line to train on.

[Lee Chiang Po]

Are you learning by yourself, or do you have a sifu?
The chamber is actually just below and in front of the arm pit. About even with your nipple. SLT is a form that programs you to make all these moves at center line. You do it from a neutral stance, one side at a time to give you the ability to use either side. It is not a fight form, but a simple form that allows you to practice and become familiar with all your weapons and blocks while staying on center. Of course if you are actually defending yourself you would want to defend your center, but this not the case.

[Liddel]

Try teaching a student SLT without this action - youll end up having to explain to them, they must keep the chest flat by not over extending with either shoulder and to also avoid hunching the shoulder not in use.

Or teach them the action and these things automatically fall into place as well as giving them an elbow attack option when grabbed from behind.

Just my 2 cents.

DREW

[LoneTiger108]

3. Because Sil Lim Tao is broken down such that only one hand is executing a technique at a time, this chamber could be just intended to keep the other hand out of the way (otherwise this other hand would need to be in motion to avoid interference).

Learning how to utilize each hand/arm individually would be the natural reason for holding a fist at the side whilst the other is in motion. We referred to the posture as po kuen and an explanation of why the fist is held high (or higher than more traditional forms like Hung Kuen) was also given.

The huen sau and 'pull back' idea ends each set in SLT too (on the right side), which in turn explains why we originally learnt 6 sets rather than the more modern 3 'sections'.

Definitely had nothing to do with having a cr4p!

[donbdc]

SYEUNG SAU KUEN

"Kuen Chau Yue Lot, But Teep Tai" - "The fists are held next to the ribs, but do not touch the body" - holding the fist back in a chambered position without resting it on the body causes an isometric training effect on the chambered arm, working the muscles required to send it out by holding it back for extended periods.

Combined with Jut Sau structure, creates Leen Lop Sau - jerking Cross Grab. Used to trap - pulling him to the hip puts the opponent into a position of Facing/Centerline Disadvantage - "Chiu Meen Jui Ying" ("Straight-on Facing and Chasing"). As a Gunboat would try to "cross the T" so that its guns pointed at the enemy while his pointed out to sea . Develops "Hoang Jai Ging" - "Controlling Energy." Pull the opponent to your hip to borrow his power. Example of "Grab and Strike" - first of five types of Hand Trapping. Double Sau Kuen from form is not used as Double Cross Grab - this would leave you vulnerable to a headbutt, so Lon Sau/Sau K "Cross-up Trap" should be used instead. Pulling the opponent's top arm across his body and over his other arm prevents him from Headbutting you, while allowing you to Headbutt him. Double Cross Grab with both arms pulling his arms towards your hips would allow him to use your own energy against you by moving into his own Headbutt. Double Sau K is only used as a double straight-across grab; could be a Chee Gyeuk double pull into a kick, skip knee or other short-range technique. Could be used if he Double Grabs your wrists > Double Sau Kuen/Headbutt. Also used in defense vs. rear choke - Grab his choking arm for air, choose leg of open side of choke, kneel on that knee/double Sau Kuen/Chum Sun to drive his head into floor. Also used (single or double) to get air when he has Guillotine Choke. Double Sau K can be used to trap ankle in knee-level Takedown with your shoulder just above his knee. Blend Sau Kuen with Tan Sau "snag" idea for Gwot Sau Scooping Arm Carry. Hidden backward Sau Jahng, Soang Jahng and downward Chum Jahng elbow blocks and strikes; Soang block vs Shovel Hook or Roundkick. Double Sau Kuen is used in Groundfighting to help get elevation in Day Ha Jing Gyeuk by raising and then supporting the lower back and hips during the kick.

Don Berry

[chusauli]

The returning hand to the Yee Ji Kim Yeung Ma Jong Sao at the "chambered position" is for you to draw a breath in and sink the "Hei Chum Dan Tien", which further activates the main three channels Ren, Du, and Chong.

When you inhale, you sink into your heels, allowing you to "swallow" the opponent's incoming energy - then setting him up for more strikes while he is off balance.

[LoneTiger108]

"Kuen Chau Yue Lot, But Teep Tai" - "The fists are held next to the ribs, but do not touch the body" - holding the fist back in a chambered position without resting it on the body causes an isometric training effect on the chambered arm, working the muscles required to send it out by holding it back for extended periods.

One reason behind this movement and posture. I agree. But the rest you speak of are more application based, so what other purpose is there other than applications in fighting?

"The returning hand to the Yee Ji Kim Yeung Ma Jong Sao at the "chambered position" is for you to draw a breath in and sink the "Hei Chum Dan Tien", which further activates the main three channels Ren, Du, and Chong.

Other than Roberts example!

[donbdc]

and an explanation of why the fist is held high (or higher than more traditional forms like Hung Kuen) was also given.

The huen sau and 'pull back' idea ends each set in SLT too (on the right side), which in turn explains why we originally learnt 6 sets rather than the more modern 3 'sections'.

Sounds like you were already given the answer you seem to be looking for

[Heisenberg]

Thank you all for participating in this thread. There were many interesting responses, some I hadn't considered. I will need to ponder these further.

To Lee Chiang Po, who asked "Are you learning by yourself, or do you have a sifu?", the answer is yes. But he is wise enough (or humble enough) to admit that he doesn't have all of the answers. And he has told me that, no matter how long or how hard I study Wing Chun, I will never have them all either. But of course, he encourages me to keep looking.

To all, I realize that there are elements of the form that are there for their teaching benefit. Some moves or sequences may not be expressed exactly as they would be in fighting. My question arose because I was unclear on the teaching benefit to chambering the hands outside of center, elbows pulled so far back. An elbow strike to the rear seams like a reasonable application of this movement, but I find it unlikely to be why it was inserted in the first form (many times). However, I will confess that I was thinking about it largely in terms of its structure. Furthering the range of elbow energy is an interesting idea. As were the ideas about isometric tension and breathing.

Again, thanks all for sharing.

[tigershorty]

a lot of good explanations for 1 thing... sounds like the wing chun to me. multi-tasking

[LoneTiger108]

Sounds like you were already given the answer you seem to be looking for

I wasn't really searching for answers, just another reason behind the posture. Of course I have been told many things apart from what I have 'suggested' but I always like to see if anyone shares a similar view.

For example, WHY does the fist not touch the body?

I'm sure that's it's not just for isometric purposes...

[Phil Redmond]

With a low chamber you can do thoracic breathing, which is bad. With the high chamber you have to do abdominal breathing from the diaphragm, which is good.

[anerlich]

With a low chamber you can do thoracic breathing, which is bad. With the high chamber you have to do abdominal breathing from the diaphragm, which is good.

The high chamber (and holding it away from the body) open the lung also. Then tension from holding it back and away, rather than having it hang there like a piece of rump steak, is to remind the practitioner that the arm is "alive", even if not currently in use.

Other than that I tend toward the "just keep it out of the way" school of thought. Not everything has to have a deep and profound explanation veiled by secrecy and antiquity.