Wing Chun historical documents?

[brianlkennedy]

I am starting to do a bit of research on the verifiable history of Wing Chun. The oldest historical documents I have been able to find are training manuals from the 1950s. I realize Wing Chun is older than that! But I am interested in seeing what historical documents exist for the history of Wing Chun. Does anyone have any suggestions? I am aware of, and have seen, training manuals for Crane Boxing that date from the 1800s and manuals for "Short Arm Boxing" from the 1700s.

take care,
Brian

[sanjuro_ronin]

You are opening up a can of worms!
Don't you frequent the WC forum?
Those guys are crazy !!
LOL !

[brianlkennedy]

No fooling---but we historians go where angels fear to tread. Anyway it could not be any worse than the abuse Stan Henning got from the "hard core tai chi-ers" when he came out and said historians should stop parroting that horse**** about Taoist sages inventing taiji. He used to routinely get called out to "push hands death matches".

yours in "truth in history",
Brian

[sanjuro_ronin]

No fooling---but we historians go where angels fear to tread. Anyway it could not be any worse than the abuse Stan Henning got from the "hard core tai chi-ers" when he came out and said historians should stop parroting that horse**** about Taoist sages inventing taiji. He used to routinely get called out to "push hands death matches".

yours in "truth in history",
Brian

"push hands death match" !!!
ROTFLMAO !!!
Priceless, I have to use it !

[Wayfaring]

No fooling---but we historians go where angels fear to tread. Anyway it could not be any worse than the abuse Stan Henning got from the "hard core tai chi-ers" when he came out and said historians should stop parroting that horse**** about Taoist sages inventing taiji. He used to routinely get called out to "push hands death matches".

yours in "truth in history",
Brian

Hey. Watch what you say there historian. Around here we call them "chi sau death matches".

LOL.

[LoneTiger108]

And apparently I have trained in "the ring of death"!!

Good luck with the research. You might like to start here: http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/...ad.php?t=53075

[brianlkennedy]

Good Morning Lone Tiger,
Thanks much for the link to that thread. I appreciate that and I took a scan through it this morning.....but alas....there is not one mention of any historical document there. What it is, is a bunch of links to modern day websites in Chinese yacking about this and that but without any historical documents (or any other proof as far as that goes).

I actually kind of think that maybe the solid historical evidence for Wing Chun's history may not go much beyond the late 1940s or early 1950s. I said that initially as a joke but we shall see. And again when I say that I am not implying that Wing Chun only came into existence then, but our solid (or even semi-solid) records do not go earlier than that.

What got me started on all this was a discussion I had with Stan Henning about the origins of various "Southern Shaolin" schools and how there had been all the horse**** about "Secret Societies", "Black Flags", "Red Junks" and all the rest. The Southern Shaolin systems really do have colorful (albeit fictional) "histories".

Let me be quick to add, I am not disrespecting South Shaolin systems, I started hung gar in 1976 and have always admired all the Southern Shaolin systems.

take care,
Brian

[t_niehoff]

Two people you might wish to contact are Rene Ritchie (at reneritchie.com or wingchunkuen.com) and Hendrik Santos (on this forum). Rene, if anyone, will know what historical documents exist. And Hendrik has, I believe, some documents that go back to one generation removed from the Red Boat era.

[LoneTiger108]

... I actually kind of think that maybe the solid historical evidence for Wing Chun's history may not go much beyond the late 1940s or early 1950s. I said that initially as a joke but we shall see. And again when I say that I am not implying that Wing Chun only came into existence then, but our solid (or even semi-solid) records do not go earlier than that.

I would tend to agree with you there Brian, as my own teacher said, "anything before Sigung are just stories!"

FWIW There are many, many pictures from Ip Mans family that were taken in HK during the 1950's and maybe they are the strongest actual historical evidence we will ever have access to...

[Shadow_warrior8]

Good Morning Lone Tiger,
Thanks much for the link to that thread. I appreciate that and I took a scan through it this morning.....but alas....there is not one mention of any historical document there. What it is, is a bunch of links to modern day websites in Chinese yacking about this and that but without any historical documents (or any other proof as far as that goes).

I actually kind of think that maybe the solid historical evidence for Wing Chun's history may not go much beyond the late 1940s or early 1950s. I said that initially as a joke but we shall see. And again when I say that I am not implying that Wing Chun only came into existence then, but our solid (or even semi-solid) records do not go earlier than that.

What got me started on all this was a discussion I had with Stan Henning about the origins of various "Southern Shaolin" schools and how there had been all the horse**** about "Secret Societies", "Black Flags", "Red Junks" and all the rest. The Southern Shaolin systems really do have colorful (albeit fictional) "histories".

Let me be quick to add, I am not disrespecting South Shaolin systems, I started hung gar in 1976 and have always admired all the Southern Shaolin systems.

take care,
Brian

Lets us see you do better

[Paul T England]

Hi,

The problem is that many of these documents are hard to date.

I have a photocopy of old books given to me by Lun Kai sifu in Foshan.. Handed down from Leung Jan and Ip Man by all accounts but how do we know when they started!!!

All I know is that modern Chinese language teachers say its very old Chinese and can only identify some words...maybe old hong kongers could read a bit more.

Paul
www.moifa.co.uk

[LoneTiger108]

All I know is that modern Chinese language teachers say its very old Chinese and can only identify some words...maybe old hong kongers could read a bit more.

Wouldn't Sifu Kwok be able to help?? From what I understand of Leung Jans book that the Ip Family have 'inherited' it is more recipes and diagnostic notes for medical purposes. No Wing Chun in there at all. But I may be wrong!

[HumbleWCGuy]

I am starting to do a bit of research on the verifiable history of Wing Chun. The oldest historical documents I have been able to find are training manuals from the 1950s. I realize Wing Chun is older than that! But I am interested in seeing what historical documents exist for the history of Wing Chun. Does anyone have any suggestions? I am aware of, and have seen, training manuals for Crane Boxing that date from the 1800s and manuals for "Short Arm Boxing" from the 1700s.

take care,
Brian

Lineage and tradition are so important to Chinese and by extension to TCMAists that you will encounter so much truth mixed with flat out lying to lend credibility to lineages, it just isn't worth the trouble. I just teach the YIM WING CHUN legend (as taught to me), along with some family specific legends, and leave it at that. Moreover, I tell my students that this story could be the gospel truth or it could be as true as a Paul Bunyan tail.

[brianlkennedy]

Thanks much for the various leads and insights. I appreciate people taking the time to respond. And if anyone runs across anything please let me know.

take care,
Brian

[Cartwright]

I would suggest contacting Dr Leung Ting. He has done a lot of research into the history and if anyone has found any historical documents, it would probably be him. He also seems to doubt the official history of Ng Mui and Yim Wing Chun and all that stuff.