Internal IP training

[TenTigers]

we've seen several people on this forum demonstrate very good IP, however, I am interested in if people have any info or experience with more internal versions, such as cinnabar palm.
I have heard of practitioners delivering light (not mere touching, mind you, but not hard strikes) strikes that left full imprints.
I have heard of people striking and leaving a bruise on the other side of the body-this one, although sounds fantastic, I can sort of say I experienced. I struck a training brother and he said he felt it go all the way through to the other side. It wasn't anything mysterious, just faht-ging, a nice, short, pulse/shock punch. BTW-he was wearing chest gear.
So I can understand if someone had developed that o a higher degree.
What is the difference with the training?
For me, the shock power came from a combination of things, definatley relaxation/looseness. I am sure the training with the rings has helped as well.
What are your thoughts?

[Dale Dugas]

I think that all good IP has internal training in it.

I have internal training and the longer you train the more you naturally move toward the internal versus the purely external.

I do not practice my iron palm to break bricks but to bring into the self defense situation if need be.

it is more about your connection with the ground, your level of residual tension, and do you control your mind/body.

[Hardwork108]

I think that all good IP has internal training in it.

You should put that on your signature,as it is a very significant and educational comment for those who think IP is just to harden the hands and to break things.

[Hardwork108]

we've seen several people on this forum demonstrate very good IP, however, I am interested in if people have any info or experience with more internal versions, such as cinnabar palm.
I have heard of practitioners delivering light (not mere touching, mind you, but not hard strikes) strikes that left full imprints.
I have heard of people striking and leaving a bruise on the other side of the body-this one, although sounds fantastic, I can sort of say I experienced. I struck a training brother and he said he felt it go all the way through to the other side. It wasn't anything mysterious, just faht-ging, a nice, short, pulse/shock punch. BTW-he was wearing chest gear.
So I can understand if someone had developed that o a higher degree.
What is the difference with the training?
For me, the shock power came from a combination of things, definatley relaxation/looseness. I am sure the training with the rings has helped as well.
What are your thoughts?

In my Wing Chun studies, I was taught that IP was primarily about hitting through targets in a way that the energy penetrated through to the internal organs.

Hitting the sand bowl was one of the exercises that was practiced. The object was not just to hit the sand in a hard manner, nor to just harden the skin, but to penetrate the fist into sand, while combining and synchronizing the striking with special a breathing methodology.

Supplementary chi kung exercises were also practiced as part of the general kung fu training to create energy flow and relaxedness.

In the Chow Gar training, penetrative power came from this style's own body unity principles, combined with relaxedness, among other things.

I really believe that IP training is one of the most misunderstood areas of the TCMAs.

[Sardinkahnikov]

In my Wing Chun studies, I was taught that IP was primarily about hitting through targets in a way that the energy penetrated through to the internal organs.

Hitting the sand bowl was one of the exercises that was practiced. The object was not just to hit the sand in a hard manner, nor to just harden the skin, but to penetrate the fist into sand, while combining and synchronizing the striking with special a breathing methodology.

Supplementary chi kung exercises were also practiced as part of the general kung fu training to create energy flow and relaxedness.

In the Chow Gar training, penetrative power came from this style's own body unity principles, combined with relaxedness, among other things.

I really believe that IP training is one of the most misunderstood areas of the TCMAs.

Could you give more details about your IP training (breathing, etc)? I didn't know there was this, let's say, more offensive aspect involved in developing such skill.

[YouKnowWho]

I have heard of practitioners delivering light (not mere touching, mind you, but not hard strikes) strikes that left full imprints.

It's not that hard to do.

- Touch 5 finger tips on your opponent's body (face, chest, shoulder, ...).
- Drop the center of your palm on your opponent's body as fast as you can.
- Raise the center of your palm away from your opponent's body as fast as you can.
- You will put a black mark on your opponent's body the day after.

IP? You may call it whatever that you want. As long as you are using the exponational Fajin method (short range, slow-fast-slow) instead of the linear Fajin methdod (long range, slow-fast), you will get the same result.

[Hardwork108]

Could you give more details about your IP training (breathing, etc)? I didn't know there was this, let's say, more offensive aspect involved in developing such skill.

Iron Palm/Fist training is all about being offensive, as the intention is to cause as much damage as possible when hitting your enemy.

To be honest, it is really difficult to explain IP training in more detail. Generally speaking, the breathing is deep. The breathing out is like a "pulse", but not forced. The striking is relaxed, but on impact the fist is tightened.

Other TCMA methodologies may be different, but valid, and will surely overlap with each other.

It is difficult to explain. It is well worth finding a knowledgable sifu to teach you and accompany your progress. I know that this is easier said than done nowadays, but it is the best way.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I think we tend to classify things "internal and eternal" base don what we THINK is going on,
A big, wide smacking slap is external while a short, seemingly effortless slap is internal.
Maybe, maybe not.
Here is how I see the internal/external thing:
If a movement is over reliant on muscles and less on technique then it is eternal ( think a beginner haymaker), but when the same move is based on correct structure, alignment and proper muscular effort at the correct time ( maximum result with minimal effort) then it is internal.

My 2cents.

[TenTigers]

that's it? no one has anything to add?
jeez, I would've expected at least a page or two...

[taai gihk yahn]

that's it? no one has anything to add?
jeez, I would've expected at least a page or two...

don't worry, it'll flesh out once the flame wars begins...

[Dale Dugas]

I think the people in the know would rather train than argue with people who obviously do not.

enough said.

[David Jamieson]

I think the people in the know would rather train that argue with people who obviously do not.

enough said.

qft +1

lol

[Hardwork108]

I think we tend to classify things "internal and eternal" base don what we THINK is going on,
A big, wide smacking slap is external while a short, seemingly effortless slap is internal.

I would go a little further and say that the effects of the short effortless slap will also define how "internal" the strike was.

Here is how I see the internal/external thing:
If a movement is over reliant on muscles and less on technique then it is eternal ( think a beginner haymaker), but when the same move is based on correct structure, alignment and proper muscular effort at the correct time ( maximum result with minimal effort) then it is internal.

I would take this a little further and say that some correct structures and alignments are not so apparent, and can only be discovered and developed through correct training with a knowledgeable sifu.

Internals, also refer to, at least in some styles, to the development of internal muscles, sinews and tendons, as to aid strength and power release, among other significant things.

IMHO, even a well executed boxing technique cannot be defined as an Internal technique in the same way as one would describe a Hsing I or Chow Gar strike.

One way I would describe an Internal technique as opposed to an External one,is to say that "less is more", in the former methodology,eg. small circle defending, as opposed to larger circle defending; short range penetrating strikes, as opposed to long range ones.

Other aspects that go with the Internals are the mastery of fine-tuned "sensitivity and listening" abilities as well as advances level "sticking", all of which should in a perfect world be overlooked by a mind like water. The resultant liveness of technique will contrast greatly with externally executed boxing, or even karate strikes (or blocks).


Just some thoughts.

[teetsao]

the way i am trained,we go from external to internal,as you want results fast or it is not worth training on. the whole ,"it takes 10 years to develop this",if this is true why even bother??
we have external techniques,then we have internal. they can be practiced at the same time or seperate. i know some people preferr to practice what they call only internal and dont hit anything at all. but if you watch their videos,it takes them forever to "charge up" their hands before breaking anything. in a real combat situation you dont have time for that. not to get off topic.
our internal training has exercises,we dont hit anything as that is already being done, and it all revolves around "intent/yi", to a high degree,not that there are not physical exercises ,but when used,intent is the guiding force. it has nothhing to do with qigong,as most all qigong is the same,ie; brings qi from the dantian to the certain parts of the body,or circulates it. you shoulod be able to do this with your mind alone.
yes we do internal trainming as well,and sanjuro is right. correct structure is alot. 6 harmonies. the rest gets pretty esoteric so i wont go into it.

[TenTigers]

the rest gets pretty esoteric so i wont go into it.

why not.............?