Taiji usage Question

[tiaji1983]

hey mang. u love taichi i love tai chi. but pulling wool over our own eyes in the long run is bad for tai chi. there is no wrestling application to forearm blocking a punch. period.

in kung fu theres profound in the simple. what looks simple is complex. dont let ur own expectations and desire for fancy things deceive u. look for truth, not dreams and illusion.

in repulse monkey stepping back and blocking is already the principle of soft. weird awkward fake wrestling is not anyhting.

I agree... But if it works, and it follows the principles, its good Taichi. I definately agree people often over complicate the techniques, but a I also agree one move in the form should not only be one thing.

[air]

Personally, I think the tai chi form is great for connecting the body. But where i have found tai chi to be most beneficial for me is understanding pressure control.

Because of tai chi push hands it has made both my hands game and ground game much better.

I use to think wing chun was enough, but after understanding more the concept of true internal martial arts i would say wing chun is just a small piece of a much larger picture...

[sanjuro_ronin]

Stepping back to strike is fruitless. Step back repulse monkey is a throw.

Dude, Lidell KO'd so many that way, including Couture, remember?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Taking strikes and making them grappling moves is nothing new, the kata "experts" do this all the time, or they add weapons when they see that the empty hand move doesn't really work.
The thing is, the obvious grappling moves are obvious and the obvious strikes are obvious too.
Forms were never the main focus of training and to think that the developers of them developed them to teach fighting is wrong.
They are a catalog of techniques and principles yes, but not of fighting combos or sequences set in stone or hidden for that matter.

[bawang]

Forms were never the main focus of training and to think that the developers of them developed them to teach fighting is wrong.
They are a catalog of techniques and principles yes, but not of fighting combos or sequences set in stone or hidden for that matter.

have u actually put this into practice. i stopped doing forms and kung fu people me give no respect. now i "dont know anything"

[Lucas]

I think learning forms can be a cool fun way to pick up new techniques. but at a certain point, imo, the only reason to keep doing the form is because you want to, not because you need to. then you may never learn any forms again when u get what you want.

you might go learn 3 forms and only take away a few things from them that you actually like. but the point was you tried it out and took something of value. by trying it out you do get a chance to try out those techniques you decided werent for your daily practicing.

you can go around and just pick up techniques too without learning any forms, thats really the same thing except you dont have to learn a long string of things you can just go, 'hey show me how to do what you just did' and learn it on its own. forms 'can' be a good element of exposure to a compilation of things other people thought were good techniques.

western boxing is a really good example of this. you go learn boxing from a boxer and you are going to be given a set of techniques that you are going to learn and start using right away. but you are only going to learn boxing. you wont learn any kicks, or throws, or weapons. so boxing is a combination of a set of techniques, principles, and methods a long tradition of fighters put together that is conformed to the sport of boxing and its ruleset.

but at the same time not every boxer is the same. with what boxing has to offer you can turn out a good strong tough fighter that can use everything he learned in a relatively short amount of time. compared to most all cma this is a good contrast of concentration.

so really when you learn a form, and then get rid of it. what ever you found useful that you can actually use, it doesnt matter what it is, because you can use it and its good for your own fighting.

/end rambling tangent

[tiaji1983]

Taking strikes and making them grappling moves is nothing new, the kata "experts" do this all the time, or they add weapons when they see that the empty hand move doesn't really work.
The thing is, the obvious grappling moves are obvious and the obvious strikes are obvious too.
Forms were never the main focus of training and to think that the developers of them developed them to teach fighting is wrong.
They are a catalog of techniques and principles yes, but not of fighting combos or sequences set in stone or hidden for that matter.

I agree mostly with your post... Only techniques and principles are what make a style, no? I agree with you when you say; "They are a catalog of techniques and principles yes, but not of fighting combos or sequences set in stone or hidden for that matter," but there are useful sequences in combat, and hidden "secrets" of the styles in the forms as well. Also each move can have more than one application. If you can successfully pull off all the sequences and applications, and understand principles and can apply them in a real life situation, isnt that fighting?

have u actually put this into practice. i stopped doing forms and kung fu people me give no respect. now i "dont know anything"

Everyone learns differently, and the arts are just that, arts. Art forms are meant to change and develop. So if they dont agree with the way you train, if it works for you, f#ck 'em. It may not be the Traditional way, but the Traditional way is not for everyone. But at the same time, you may be a good fighter, but have you learned all there is for you to learn from the forms? Not saying you havent cuz I dont know you, just food for thought.

I think learning forms can be a cool fun way to pick up new techniques. but at a certain point, imo, the only reason to keep doing the form is because you want to, not because you need to. then you may never learn any forms again when u get what you want.

you might go learn 3 forms and only take away a few things from them that you actually like. but the point was you tried it out and took something of value. by trying it out you do get a chance to try out those techniques you decided werent for your daily practicing.

you can go around and just pick up techniques too without learning any forms, thats really the same thing except you dont have to learn a long string of things you can just go, 'hey show me how to do what you just did' and learn it on its own. forms 'can' be a good element of exposure to a compilation of things other people thought were good techniques.

western boxing is a really good example of this. you go learn boxing from a boxer and you are going to be given a set of techniques that you are going to learn and start using right away. but you are only going to learn boxing. you wont learn any kicks, or throws, or weapons. so boxing is a combination of a set of techniques, principles, and methods a long tradition of fighters put together that is conformed to the sport of boxing and its ruleset.

but at the same time not every boxer is the same. with what boxing has to offer you can turn out a good strong tough fighter that can use everything he learned in a relatively short amount of time. compared to most all cma this is a good contrast of concentration.

so really when you learn a form, and then get rid of it. what ever you found useful that you can actually use, it doesnt matter what it is, because you can use it and its good for your own fighting.

/end rambling tangent

Your method makes sense and its a good way to learn an abundance of techniques. It can make you a good fighter, But its no way to master a specific style. Someone who loves a specific style and wants to master it, will stick with the forms until they master them. When they use the techniques, the form no longer matters, but you can always learn more from your forms. My teacher has been practicing since the 50s and says hes still learning from his forms. It all depends on how you evaluate the form. Even the slightest movment can have an application in an abundance of situations. Even your stance, footwork, where you sink and raise, your eyes, your Qi, your wieght distribution, direction, everything has a meaning, and everything can be changed to make something else. But have you evaluated your forms to that point? If not, have you truly mastered the forms?

[sanjuro_ronin]

have u actually put this into practice. i stopped doing forms and kung fu people me give no respect. now i "dont know anything"

Dude, I can take almost any move and show you dozens of applications for it, be it striking, grappling or weapons.
Doesn't mean most of them will actually work for real.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I agree mostly with your post... Only techniques and principles are what make a style, no? I agree with you when you say; "They are a catalog of techniques and principles yes, but not of fighting combos or sequences set in stone or hidden for that matter," but there are useful sequences in combat, and hidden "secrets" of the styles in the forms as well. Also each move can have more than one application. If you can successfully pull off all the sequences and applications, and understand principles and can apply them in a real life situation, isnt that fighting?

Techniques and principles are what define a style, people are what makes it.
There are some useful sequences in combat, yes, but very rarely are they applied like they are done in forms.
As for hidden secrets, take that with a grain of salt.
Ever seen anyone win a fight with a "hidden secret" or is it usually good solid basics?

[KC Elbows]

Taiji is a bit more succinct than some kung fu styles. The empty hand alll encompassed in one form. Still, that's a lot of fighting moves.

I've never met anyone who was able to encapsulate each move in it's ideal application, the one that occurs most, in their fighting. Much less every variation they could think of.

Usually, the form already contains a superior approach in some other technique that performs what the obscure apps are trying to do.

[Lucas]

Your method makes sense and its a good way to learn an abundance of techniques. It can make you a good fighter, But its no way to master a specific style. Someone who loves a specific style and wants to master it, will stick with the forms until they master them. When they use the techniques, the form no longer matters, but you can always learn more from your forms. My teacher has been practicing since the 50s and says hes still learning from his forms. It all depends on how you evaluate the form. Even the slightest movment can have an application in an abundance of situations. Even your stance, footwork, where you sink and raise, your eyes, your Qi, your wieght distribution, direction, everything has a meaning, and everything can be changed to make something else. But have you evaluated your forms to that point? If not, have you truly mastered the forms?

thats really just part of my method regarding martial arts. i have 2 forms that i practice regularly, xiaohongquan and dahongquan. ill probably practice these 2 sets until i die or cant anymore, because i really like the style, and do continue to learn from these sets. i also keep a few weapons sets fresh.

i have a really open style of learning martial arts, i chose a long time ago to always be a student. and by that i dont mean the cliche of being forever the student but in that i dont plan to openly teach, ever. i teach a few people privately but they call me by my first name and i really just view them as training partners i am sharing my info with. i view my teaching time with them as a personal learning experience. as such ive taken it upon myself to review many different methods of learning and incorporate what i find useful into my own learning process.

the aikido ive been learning has no forms in the training, just the techniques and breakdowns and variations through application and pressure testing. i can these techniques and find the comparable variation in my shaoliln sets. its pretty fun to find these cross overs from style to style and see the difference in how the techniques are introduced and ultimately put into training and usable application.

i do agree that as a martial artist if one wants to really concentrate on a style, you need to fully absorb everything that style has to offer in terms of a training format. from cma to boxing to savate to judo to anything.

ultimately the importance of forms, imo, are determined soley by the practitioner in conjunction with their training goals.

[tiaji1983]

Techniques and principles are what define a style, people are what makes it.
There are some useful sequences in combat, yes, but very rarely are they applied like they are done in forms.
As for hidden secrets, take that with a grain of salt.
Ever seen anyone win a fight with a "hidden secret" or is it usually good solid basics?

Good points sir.

I agree sequences are rarely applied like they are in the form.
As for the secrets, it depends on what you mean as secrets. Sometimes simple techniques hidden in the forms (which can also be taught as basics) like the unbendable arm, or a finger or hand position thats not shown can win a fight, but yes, it is mostly good solid basics and deception.

[Lucas]

As for hidden secrets, take that with a grain of salt.

says the man with a fully forged PE fist lol