Internal IP training

[sanjuro_ronin]

actually, I think that one can look at so-called "internal" in one of two ways: training and outcome / effect

if we use training medthodology (the path up the mountain) as the yardstick by which we measure the relative "internalicity" of a given system, of course we can't say that boxing or wrestling are "internal" in the same way that something like taiji or even some of the hakka systems (e.g. - SPM, Chow Ga) are; that is because the focus, priorities, cultural context, etc. are very different from one to the other;

however, if we look at outcome / effect (the "top" of the mountain), we can see that (good) wrestlers develop what essentially is the equivalent of "teng ging" (listening skill), "pang ging" (uprooting), "gan" (rootedness) etc. to the point of being essentially indistinguishable from a skilled taiji player; and boxers, in my estimation, tend to be pretty good at delivering "fa jing" (power issuance) when they strike using pretty much the same mechanics as a xing yi or taiji guy does; similarly, boxing footwork is an excellent example of "hin gung" or lightness skill (in the realistic sesnse, not in the "run up a wall" artifact)

so the question is - if someone trains a so-called "interal" system and is not able to produce the results that a boxer / wrestler produces, who is ultimately manifesting "internal" principles?

Well said and well put Christov.
Fact is that the whole internal/external thing are just terms, no more no less, just because certain MA don't use them doesn't mean they don't have the same skills.

[TenTigers]

I used the word,"internal" for lack of a better term. But, a specialized skill, nonetheless.
Those that have experience, know exactly what I am referring to.
As my teacher likes to say,"What have you seen? What have you felt? Who have you met and touched?"
most people who like to scoff, usually have never had any real experience with any of this.
Perhaps their teacher didn't have the skills, or just chose not to show or teach them.
Perhaps the student just didn't get it, or the teacher chose not to teach him. There are alot of reasons. But they usually fall into the above catagories.

[IronWeasel]

we've seen several people on this forum demonstrate very good IP, however, I am interested in if people have any info or experience with more internal versions, such as cinnabar palm.
I have heard of practitioners delivering light (not mere touching, mind you, but not hard strikes) strikes that left full imprints.
I have heard of people striking and leaving a bruise on the other side of the body-this one, although sounds fantastic, I can sort of say I experienced. I struck a training brother and he said he felt it go all the way through to the other side. It wasn't anything mysterious, just faht-ging, a nice, short, pulse/shock punch. BTW-he was wearing chest gear.
So I can understand if someone had developed that o a higher degree.
What is the difference with the training?
For me, the shock power came from a combination of things, definatley relaxation/looseness. I am sure the training with the rings has helped as well.
What are your thoughts?

I asked GM Chicoine about this sort of thing before I began the regular IP training. He said that bruising the other side of the body with a strike could be generated after Poison Hand training.

He did the Poison Hand training himself as did five senior students.

He said that the herbs required are nearly impossible to get.

[teetsao]

true "poison hand" has absolutely nothing to do with herbs or jow. that is some type of assassination technique where you put poison on your hands and hit someone with it.
he (chicoine) was referring to feeman ongs "poison hand soak". i am pretty sure dale still has it and sells it. ark wong also had a poison fingernail jow you cooked into a sand block and flicked your fingernails against. it turned the nails black and poisoned the nails,and in essence made the poison needles. it contained things like,"wild wolfs' teeth,tiger claw," and different poisonous animal parts. i have both formulas for history sake, but this is not true poison hand skill.

[IronWeasel]

true "poison hand" has absolutely nothing to do with herbs or jow. that is some type of assassination technique where you put poison on your hands and hit someone with it.
he (chicoine) was referring to feeman ongs "poison hand soak". i am pretty sure dale still has it and sells it. ark wong also had a poison fingernail jow you cooked into a sand block and flicked your fingernails against. it turned the nails black and poisoned the nails,and in essence made the poison needles. it contained things like,"wild wolfs' teeth,tiger claw," and different poisonous animal parts. i have both formulas for history sake, but this is not true poison hand skill.

Yes it was a "soak"...so to speak. The herbal "jow" component was applied as a hot (pan on the stove) soaking of the hand for a certain period of time.

The method of striking the bag was different than the regular IP conditioning method.

Your hand wasn't "poisonous" so to speak...or else your next sandwich would be your last!

[taai gihk yahn]

I don't make the distinction of external and internal in reference to martial arts practice.

I think it's just silly to look at the body as separate in that respect. There is really nothing but the whole body which includes mind. An integrated unit.
You can either fight or you can't.
You can either meditate or not.
You can either be strong or you aren't

compartmentalized descriptions can help a learning process as far as organizing thoughts go. But if not done in logical and easy to read order, it is going to wind up being fudge.

agreed - the "subtext" of my post was to in fact point out the fallacy of the division if, ultimately, you can train "internally" but not get "internal" results whereas someone who does not train "internaly" doesn't get "internal" results; it's not black and white, it's shades of gray, and therefore to classify one as opposed to the other creates an artificial contrivance;

of course, there are certain training approaches that "internal" styles use that impact the physiology in a specific manner - but they are not the only way to get the results that one sees in skilled combat, be it sport or otherwise;

but bear in mind that these "internal" training's are nothing more than a codification of what the human organism naturally moves towards on its own, and that one could spontaneously arrive at these trainings (I mean, someone had to come up with them at some point, right?) given the right circumstances (and practicing combat under pressure is, IMPO, one of those cricumstances where either you discover the "truth" of these skills, or you fail to become an effective fighter)

this is, of course, in relation to fighting, not any sort of health practice - that is another discussion entirely...

[TenTigers]

Poison Hand is also another term for dim-muk, dim-yuet, etc.
as far as the ability to cause bruises on the other side, Richard Barathy was known to be able to do this as well.
(then again, R.A.B. was pretty extraordinary himself)

[David Jamieson]

*snip*

but bear in mind that these "internal" training's are nothing more than a codification of what the human organism naturally moves towards on its own, and that one could spontaneously arrive at these trainings (I mean, someone had to come up with them at some point, right?) given the right circumstances (and practicing combat under pressure is, IMPO, one of those cricumstances where either you discover the "truth" of these skills, or you fail to become an effective fighter)

this is, of course, in relation to fighting, not any sort of health practice - that is another discussion entirely...

*hands over a decent cuban and a banana*

[MysteriousPower]

I used the word,"internal" for lack of a better term. But, a specialized skill, nonetheless.
Those that have experience, know exactly what I am referring to.
As my teacher likes to say,"What have you seen? What have you felt? Who have you met and touched?"
most people who like to scoff, usually have never had any real experience with any of this.
Perhaps their teacher didn't have the skills, or just chose not to show or teach them.
Perhaps the student just didn't get it, or the teacher chose not to teach him. There are alot of reasons. But they usually fall into the above catagories.

How many mms fights have your or your teacher fought and killed the other guy? Your teacher essentially showed you something that is untestable unless you get attacked on the street.

If you can't test it then how do you know you it works or that you can even set it up? Let me guess. Your teacher fought death matches in China when no one was looking.

You guys are worse than Kung Fu larpers because you make fun of them while not seeing that you are training garbage. Hand conditioning is normal but you crazies vaguely elude to having special abilities. "I hit my student through his chest protector and he felt it through to his other side." Yeah, ok. Spar with someone for real and hit him with IP. And then when called out on your bs you say you never claimed to be doing anything special. If you did not think it special you would have referred to it as hand conditioning instead of "internal" IP. Wake up already cause you are on drugs.

[Hardwork108]

actually, I think that one can look at so-called "internal" in one of two ways: training and outcome / effect

if we use training medthodology (the path up the mountain) as the yardstick by which we measure the relative "internalicity" of a given system, of course we can't say that boxing or wrestling are "internal" in the same way that something like taiji or even some of the hakka systems (e.g. - SPM, Chow Ga) are; that is because the focus, priorities, cultural context, etc. are very different from one to the other;

however, if we look at outcome / effect (the "top" of the mountain), we can see that (good) wrestlers develop what essentially is the equivalent of "teng ging" (listening skill), "pang ging" (uprooting), "gan" (rootedness) etc. to the point of being essentially indistinguishable from a skilled taiji player; and boxers, in my estimation, tend to be pretty good at delivering "fa jing" (power issuance) when they strike using pretty much the same mechanics as a xing yi or taiji guy does; similarly, boxing footwork is an excellent example of "hin gung" or lightness skill (in the realistic sesnse, not in the "run up a wall" artifact)

One of the distinctions of training the Internals is that your abilities will stay with you for a lot longer than the boxer. Health wise, one would also end up at a better place.

Also, there are Internal power/strength development methodologies use different approaches that classifies them as Internal, much more than the boxing path would. There are body unity concepts and training methodologies in Chow Gar that you will never ever see in boxing.

In fact most people who practice kung fu nowadays will not be familiar with them, and the evidence of that is in this very discussion and others that I have participated, in this forum and others. Some of these distinct methodologies can be found in some lineages of Dragon, Pak Mei and Hsing I, among others.

I am given to understand that Tai chi had a similar approach (to Chow Gar) in creating body unity (also strength and power), which somehow got lost along the way, or at least where most of the practitioners are concerned, nowadays.

So, to compare boxing efficiency to that of Internal TCMAs, is in some ways pushing it, as there are many, dare I say more occult, or closed door methodologies (and they do exist,no matter what the deniars say or think), who many that make these comparisons are not aware of.

Of course, I will agree that efficient external technique at some point can "overlap" with internal principles, but that does not make them the same.

so the question is - if someone trains a so-called "internal" system and is not able to produce the results that a boxer / wrestler produces, who is ultimately manifesting "internal" principles?

I would say, 9 times out of 10, none of them.

I mean if you reverse what you just said and say what if the Internal guy can make what he does work, while the boxer can't, would that ultimately mean that the Internalist was manifesting "external" principles?? Of course not!

One does not become a great boxer by NOT making his given external martial art work for him. The same would be true of any Internal martial arts system.

The subject area is very complex and each of us have knowledge that is based on different methodologies and approaches, even if some of them will undoubtedly overlap. So, I guess we will always see things that may not be considered by the other, meaning that I cannot expect everyone to "appreciate" what I am saying.

[Hardwork108]

If you did not think it special you would have referred to it as hand conditioning instead of "internal" IP. Wake up already cause you are on drugs.

There is a difference between hand conditioning, for example, basic Makiwara training, and Iron Palm training.......

[Hardwork108]

I don't make the distinction of external and internal in reference to martial arts practice.

Why doesn't that surprise me? LOL!

I think it's just silly to look at the body as separate in that respect.

It has nothing to do with looking at the "body as separate"!

However, that is a common mistake made by people who do not have any idea about genuine Internal TCMA methodologies!

There is really nothing but the whole body which includes mind. An integrated unit.

That sounds "intelligent" and "wise", but would also describe a good tennis player.

Let me give you a hint, it is not, the what, but the how and how much further you can take it.

You can either fight or you can't.
You can either meditate or not.
You can either be strong or you aren't

You forgot, "you can either play tennis or you can't"....LOL

compartmentalized descriptions can help a learning process as far as organizing thoughts go. But if not done in logical and easy to read order, it is going to wind up being fudge.

CHRIST!!!!

It is not about "compartmentalized descriptions", it is about valid, but complex methodologies, that do have an "external" side to them. Read, "Yin and Yang"; read, "Equilibrium" or "Harmony"!!!

It is no good to come here and quote from Chinese Philosophical books, in order to come across as smart, if you cannot see those same philosophies within a TCMA context!!!!

Is it true that you "teach Kung Fu"?

[Hardwork108]

I used the word,"internal" for lack of a better term.

The "lack of a better term" is a reality, as far as the Internals are concerned, and you probably know that there is a good reason for that.

But, a specialized skill, nonetheless.
Those that have experience, know exactly what I am referring to.
As my teacher likes to say,"What have you seen? What have you felt? Who have you met and touched?"
most people who like to scoff, usually have never had any real experience with any of this.
Perhaps their teacher didn't have the skills, or just chose not to show or teach them.
Perhaps the student just didn't get it, or the teacher chose not to teach him. There are alot of reasons. But they usually fall into the above catagories.

Very true comments.

You might have also added, "A little knowledge is a dangerous thing".

It seems that many with some Internal TCMA experience, think that they know all there is to know, and use that assumption to make up their minds. The thought that there may be methodolgies out there that they have no idea about never crosses their minds, and is unacceptable in their individual realities. At least that is what it is looking like from where I am sitting.

I guess this is a human characteristic, but nevertheless IMHO I would suggest to everyone to recognize that they do not know everything about Internal TCMAs, and take my word for it that there is a lot out there that WILL surprise them one day, if they are lucky enough to cross paths with people in the know.

Anyway, good post and thanks. Your post stopped me from going totally nuts...LOL!

[teetsao]

mysterious power,
here it is in a nutshell. this thread was started to ask if anyone trains internal i.p.,which is another branch or side of i.p. in general. you are correct in saying that it originates as hand conditioning for battle feild scenario. this is why real i.p. only takes a year to obtain, to be able to do some serious damage. a real combat skill can be developed quickly to be used or would have been discarded. now then, comes the temple monks and the taoist monks,who at times fought but mainly kept to themselves,so they had centuries to expand/expound upon the basic principle of hand conditioning and add to it with their "down time" so to speak and make it into an art in and of itself. sub sets of iron palm and poison hand training. some done through "internal" or more esoteric devices.the cosmos palm is an example of internal,kinda meditation only i.p. i personally do not agree with it or see its validity but none the less it is there. some scholars love stuff like that and feel developing it this way is superior. i do not.so alot of time and effort on the part of the monks and recluses have gone into this and some great skills can be developed. jus because mma does not do it, does not mean it isnt legit,internal i.p. is also thought to lend itself to healing more so than external. this is why i subscribe to both schools and do both kinds of training.in internal we have physical exercises but it is mainly"intent" as i said before. i will let a little something out here (and yes i know it sounds weird and iw ill draw flak for it but we do it) we use visualizations. this technique is very old and athletes around the world and especially in russia use it to great benefits. i cant go into the specifics but they work. i have seen some weird sh&%t with my own eyes. not hocus pocus or parlor tricks either but real skills to a very high level,that if you did not see you would not beleive. this to me,along with proper body alignment when striking, is internal i.p.
my 2 cents and i am done on this thread. it was good though. i hope questions were answered.

[sanjuro_ronin]

See, I am kind of in the middle of this, I have seen some weird **** too, hands changing colour while doing IP Qigong for example, but I have also seen a few very good IP guys get their clocks cleaned even after hitting the other guy with their IP hand.

Fact is, all the "internals" in the world won't help you if you can't fight.

IP needs a delivery platform and not only that, it needs a skillful delivery platform.
I have seen too many guys "rest: on their IP and pay for it.

I don't bother with the Internal/external debate, I have seen enough internals in every MA, even those that don't directly "cultivate" it and I have seen far too many internal guys get their clocks cleaned because they didn't understand on crucial element of IMA:
You can't use those skills if you are knocked out.


On the subject at hand though, tricks aside, and we all know that there is too much of that stuff in IP demos, the whole "exotic" face of IP training (poison hand, vibrating palm, hairy beaver palm, shaved beaver palm, etc) is quite simple this:
Can YOU do it in a fight?
If the answer is No, why bother?
If the answer is I don't know, then find out, FAST, before it is too late.
If the answer is yes, I ask you this, truthfully:
Against whom and under what conditions.