Manup Standup fights

[Phil Redmond]

they are allowing no time for any grappling to happen, but probably just enough time for an injury to happen as someone trys something stupid, either give them enough time to grappl both standing and on the ground or just ban it its not rocket science if you dont want it to happen just ban it from the rules

When I fought in the Fu Jow Pai full contact events in the 80's. You were allowed only 3 consecutive elbows, and knees. You could also do three stikes to an opponent on the ground.
So counting 1001, 1002, 1003, . . . . 1010, is not too bad. I'm not a grappler and I think grappling is important but many people get bored seeing two guys fighting on the ground. I remember when UFC people could stay in the ground forever. Didn't the UFC change that rule? I'm thinking it's because people would rather see a good knockout than two guys "grappling" for long periods. No offense to grapplers intended.

[HumbleWCGuy]

two points, firstly not a wing chun comp its open to all styles, and secondly check the actual fights out and tell me they are using open hand techniques or any techniques that need an open gloves

I see your point. It's not really not so much to do with people wanting to use karate chops and the like. The issues is the defense/blocking. Most TCMA systems (especially Southern) have blocking strategies and techniques similar to WC so for them to enter a competition with boxing gloves, they have to be taught to"Kickbox." What this usually boils down to is adjusting the defense to account for an inflexible wrist and inability to open the palms. Stance can be an issue but not necessarily.

One of the staples of TCMA is the pak sao. With gloves and wraps/tape, some of the ways that the pak can be used are lost. Also, it becomes harder to clear and to use lops and so on. The lop is used in a lot of systems outside of TCMA. It is pretty common in TKD for example.

I wasn't in the room when these decisions were made, but I would guess that in order to get better turn out on short notice, the less modification required the better. Plus traditionalist guys are always making a stink about how the gloves hinder their ability to properly express their techniques.

[t_niehoff]

Other than the fact that I actually know what I am talking about whereas, you clearly do not.

It must really be hell to know you're right and not be able to find any evidence to support your view, and to know that all the evidence we do have (like all the "ring fights" you believe are so different than what happens in the gym) refutes your view.

[HumbleWCGuy]

It must really be hell to know you're right and not be able to find any evidence to support your view, and to know that all the evidence we do have (like all the "ring fights" you believe are so different than what happens in the gym) refutes your view.

What you need to do is to go into the gym and kickbox three 2 minute rounds where the only acceptable result is a referee stoppage, Knock Out, or decision. Then, you will understand that their is a world of difference between YOUR normal gym sparring where you ask your partner to stop every time it looks to get too physical for you. The fact that you don't understand how punishment to your body causes you to lose strikes in a round is evidence that you haven't even had a serious sparring match before.

[HumbleWCGuy]

Hey T, when you have bone bruises on your skull (under the normal bruises) after sparring and experienced multiple flash knockouts during your gym sparring, I will concede.

Do you get cut and have to continue after a few minutes of direct pressure and ice or do you just call it a night?

[t_niehoff]

Humble, go train at a good MMA school -- you haven't a clue as to how they train.

[HumbleWCGuy]

Humble, go train at a good MMA school -- you haven't a clue as to how they train.

Whatever you have to tell yourself to maintain your delusions.

Here again, I have specific things that I can talk about that are clearly out of your realm of experience because you are a LARPER. You get hit hard and you go and sit down and that's who you are.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j_ekugPKqFw

[Frost]

When I fought in the Fu Jow Pai full contact events in the 80's. You were allowed only 3 consecutive elbows, and knees. You could also do three stikes to an opponent on the ground.
So counting 1001, 1002, 1003, . . . . 1010, is not too bad. I'm not a grappler and I think grappling is important but many people get bored seeing two guys fighting on the ground. I remember when UFC people could stay in the ground forever. Didn't the UFC change that rule? I'm thinking it's because people would rather see a good knockout than two guys "grappling" for long periods. No offense to grapplers intended.

No offence the public likes seeing stand up fights not too much ground work that a no brainer, in Japan they appreciate the ground more. And hopefully you dont take offense when i say anyone with grappling experience will realise that 10 seconds is not enough time to do anything other than maybe get injured from a silly move someone is trying because of the time limit.

my point is 4oz gloves where delevoped to allow grappling, if you are not allowing grappling (and the 10 second rule does not allow any grappling) then why use them? why not use 8 or 10oz open hand mma gloves, they make them now and use them in sparring, not in comps as they stop grappling and make it very hard to clinch and strike or ground grapple, seeing as this comp doesnt want the strikers to do this why bother with them? They will provide better protection and still allow open hand strikes

[Frost]

I see your point. It's not really not so much to do with people wanting to use karate chops and the like. The issues is the defense/blocking. Most TCMA systems (especially Southern) have blocking strategies and techniques similar to WC so for them to enter a competition with boxing gloves, they have to be taught to"Kickbox." What this usually boils down to is adjusting the defense to account for an inflexible wrist and inability to open the palms. Stance can be an issue but not necessarily.

One of the staples of TCMA is the pak sao. With gloves and wraps/tape, some of the ways that the pak can be used are lost. Also, it becomes harder to clear and to use lops and so on. The lop is used in a lot of systems outside of TCMA. It is pretty common in TKD for example.

I wasn't in the room when these decisions were made, but I would guess that in order to get better turn out on short notice, the less modification required the better. Plus traditionalist guys are always making a stink about how the gloves hinder their ability to properly express their techniques.

its not that hard to pat down using boxing gloves, and CLF and lama guys do well in sanda with gloves, but i see your point, so my next question is why not use 8 or 10oz open hand MMA gloves, most lubs have these for sparring but not for comps as they make grappling very hard with the extra bulk..but seeing as this comp is allowing no real grappling why not use them i would have thought they would have been much safer

[Frost]

What you need to do is to go into the gym and kickbox three 2 minute rounds where the only acceptable result is a referee stoppage, Knock Out, or decision. Then, you will understand that their is a world of difference between YOUR normal gym sparring where you ask your partner to stop every time it looks to get too physical for you. The fact that you don't understand how punishment to your body causes you to lose strikes in a round is evidence that you haven't even had a serious sparring match before.

he is actually right, there is a world of difference between sparring and competing, going up against someone you dont know who is actually out to hurt or knock you out (or break a limb) is totally different from a hard sparring match, the intent is totally different as is its effects on you.

Is sparring very very useful, yes and its better than any other form of training, but it is not the same

[HumbleWCGuy]

It's a little more than Chi Sao.
http://www.youtube.com/user/ManupStandup#p/a

Phil, I didn't see any kids nor did I see women? I have two 13 year old girls. We can't make it this time anyway, but with more notice this looks to be a nice little debut if they don't kickbox at the Arnold next year.

If you tell me that they have a healthy kids division that fights like the video. I might say to heck with it and run up there.

[HumbleWCGuy]

its not that hard to pat down using boxing gloves, and CLF and lama guys do well in sanda with gloves, but i see your point, so my next question is why not use 8 or 10oz open hand MMA gloves, most lubs have these for sparring but not for comps as they make grappling very hard with the extra bulk..but seeing as this comp is allowing no real grappling why not use them i would have thought they would have been much safer

The boxing gloves require an adjustment period and some training. Also, one some level when you though boxing gloves into the mix learning more boxing blocks helps as well or you will be behind guys who use those blocks.

I have no idea why they are using 4 ounce gloves because somebody pretty good is going to come in there and send guys out on stretchers. Look at the video.

FYI, I am about 14 hours from that venue so it is unlikely that I will attend.

[HumbleWCGuy]

he is actually right

That's par for the course when I am talking with T.

[t_niehoff]

he is actually right, there is a world of difference between sparring and competing, going up against someone you dont know who is actually out to hurt or knock you out (or break a limb) is totally different from a hard sparring match, the intent is totally different as is its effects on you.

Is sparring very very useful, yes and its better than any other form of training, but it is not the same

Yes, there is a "world of difference" -- however, that wasn't the issue. Go read the thread to get the CONTEXT of my POV. I said that the rules of this event made grappling inconsequential. Humble replied about how getting thrown and someone landing on you was somehow "consequential." I asked for him to supply evidence (how many MMA, K1, etc. fights do we have to choose from?) of where being thrown and landed upon made much of a difference in a fight. He couldn't come up with any. Moreover, I told him that I get taken down, thrown, etc. all the time in training and it really isn't consequential -- to which he replied how training isn't fighting in the ring. What a brilliant retort. But how is getting thrown and landed on in training significantly different than getting thrown and landed on in the ring?

[sanjuro_ronin]

A few things:
10 seconds isn't enough time, 30 seconds is a tad better and not too long to make it "boring".
Getting landed on after being thrown is very consequencial, even more so when the guy throwing you KNOWS how to do it AND has 100lbs on you, LOL !!
I got a dislocated collar bone from one of those.