Maui thai plum

[bennyvt]

Trying to bring some more technical topics up.

I have found the major problem is keeping your waist forward and back straight to stop control of your body. With the hands I tend to use a jum sao/lower punch to stop knees etc or if they don't have a good hold of my head. Just punching can work but I find I doesn't control the body and the knees can get you. I tend to be on the outside when this happens as a good maui thai guy will keep the elbows really tight so normally punching up the centre is near impossible.
Well any thoughts?

[Frost]

Trying to bring some more technical topics up.

I have found the major problem is keeping your waist forward and back straight to stop control of your body. With the hands I tend to use a jum sao/lower punch to stop knees etc or if they don't have a good hold of my head. Just punching can work but I find I doesn't control the body and the knees can get you. I tend to be on the outside when this happens as a good maui thai guy will keep the elbows really tight so normally punching up the centre is near impossible.
Well any thoughts?

Take the space away and ensure you have balance and position before anything else.

If you are having trouble keeping your waist forward you have to stagger your stance and do what ever it takes to get your hips under your head, even if it means lowering your base and almost shoting a double to get the hips under the head if you are bent over.

one leg forward ideally between his legs with your hips and neck inline with the leg (means he is pulling into your leg so you have better balance). Bulled neck is also vital you have to decrease the length of the lever or you are in trouble. Just punching only works if you can get the above position, otherwise his knees will do serious damage. ALso a good thai clinch guy will be moving you around, he will only throw knees when you are off balance. Best ways to kill the knees if you cant get your hips under your head and your leg between his is to jam his hips hard and run him down, of course he will turn you off if he is good but hey you are in trouble either way.

I dont like just blocking the knees because a good thai guy will lift over the arms and punch the knee in with the hip, not just bring it up at an angle.

escape wise re-pumme for insdie controll, go for the underhook on the side your legs foward, body lock if he is too close or if its really tight reaching over his arms prying his chin up and away levering against his jaw with your hand on his trap t and then move him backwards as your over hand pushes his extended arms over your head.

[t_niehoff]

Trying to bring some more technical topics up.

I have found the major problem is keeping your waist forward and back straight to stop control of your body. With the hands I tend to use a jum sao/lower punch to stop knees etc or if they don't have a good hold of my head. Just punching can work but I find I doesn't control the body and the knees can get you. I tend to be on the outside when this happens as a good maui thai guy will keep the elbows really tight so normally punching up the centre is near impossible.
Well any thoughts?

I hate technical answers because they are almost always theoretical (I think this will work). There is no worse way to learn. And typically involve discussions about why my fantasy is better than your fantasy.

Theoretical answers are always bad, and they often suggest that there is a simple answer or one answer that will deal with a problem. And that's never the case. In this instance, you can't just learn a technique to deal with the MT clinch, you need to develop a whole game to deal with it. Because anything you do will cause him to change.

The only way to work it out and develop your own game is by training with decent MT fighters and experiencing it firsthand. You need to know what they will be doing when they get you in the plumb -- the problems you will REALLY face -- before you can even start trying to work out answers. It takes LOADS of hard work to be able to deal with a decent plumb. Good MT gyms devote TONS of training/sparring time to the clinch. If you don't work as hard, you won't have a chance.

If a good MT fighter locks in a plumb, he will be jerking you around like a rag doll, pulling you into strikes, even tossing you to the ground. You won't be punching him (he wants you to waste your time trying that, btw) or use a jum sao to stop his knees as you won't have a base to punch or "block" from.

You will find that (1) you will need to "hold" onto him for your balance AS (2) you fight to break his hold/control (if you can't break it, you will be lost), and then either (3) establish your own control or break away (which has its own problems).

[HumbleWCGuy]

Trying to bring some more technical topics up.

I have found the major problem is keeping your waist forward and back straight to stop control of your body. With the hands I tend to use a jum sao/lower punch to stop knees etc or if they don't have a good hold of my head. Just punching can work but I find I doesn't control the body and the knees can get you. I tend to be on the outside when this happens as a good maui thai guy will keep the elbows really tight so normally punching up the centre is near impossible.
Well any thoughts?

Go to a Muay Thai gym and train for a while or call a studio an ask to take a few private lessons centering around your questions. You could pretty well run though a good deal of basics pretty quickly. It sounds like you are having trouble with the basics if you are using your hands a lot to stop knees. That's not WC either. Also just looking above, there is about a 50/50 accuracy rate. Also, the way that you need to position your feet varies based on the type of competition, opponent, or the environment.

[lkfmdc]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DCK_0...feature=search

[Frost]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DCK_0...feature=search

nice you showed the issue of the bringing of the knee over the blocking arm really nicely, and getting the hips under the head too.

The thired and fouth escapess (the pushing the head and lifting the arm, and the pummeling for underhook) were two i was talking about

Nice to know my coaches know what they are doing

[Jorge]

I was going to say to learn to snake the clinch, but Ross put up a good vid on what you want to do!

Our snake is a tad bit different, but pretty much the same. You can also try to pull your hips in to the opponent and with one arm you wrap around your opponents waist pulling in to you and your other hand you want to stiff arm their face. Which will force their head to go back. This move should fold or hyper extend their back. Its simple and works. Hope you can understand what I wrote down. I'll try to find a clip or a pic.

Bless,

Buby

[Jorge]

What Frost wrote hear is dead on! Pay extra attention to "one leg forward ideally between his legs with your hips and neck inline with the leg (means he is pulling into your leg so you have better balance). Bulled neck is also vital you have to decrease the length of the lever or you are in trouble." -otherwise the clip Ross posted and the lil info I put wont work. My Kru tells us to stand up or rise for the occasion, when in a clinch.LOLOL

Nice breakdown Frost!

Buby

[HumbleWCGuy]

You can't decrease the length of your neck. You are straightening your neck to its strongest point and using your shoulders to reduced the amount of exposed neck.

Also, trying to play the "my foot between his" game is limited. You want to lead in with a side to get your posture back if you lost it, but it isn't really "the position." Just getting your feet under you back into a relatively neutral stance (as shown by Dave) and moving to a "tripod," using your opponent as a balance point, like T. is saying is probably generally more accurate.

Finally, the kickboxing clinch basically cuts out all the standard inside boxing. I spend time developing some of those skills, but boxing teaches a lot of bad habits for clinching. Bending over and leaning on someone like a boxer will get you killed.

[bennyvt]

OK.
Thanks frost good ideas, the guy I do shoot with says the same thing. more from a wrestling point of veiw though.
Terrence, thanks man. No theory. This is what I do against people when caught in a maui thai clinch. Yes the whole don't get in it is great. But not practicle. Eventually you will end up there. What Vt can you use to get out.
The jum sao is controlling the person and trying to break the hold. I am not just waiting for the knee as yes he will be throwing me while I am waiting for the knee.
The waist and other weaknesses were to give people things to think about. I am not saying that I can't keep my waist forward.

[Frost]

OK.
Thanks frost good ideas, the guy I do shoot with says the same thing. more from a wrestling point of veiw though.
Terrence, thanks man. No theory. This is what I do against people when caught in a maui thai clinch. Yes the whole don't get in it is great. But not practicle. Eventually you will end up there. What Vt can you use to get out.
The jum sao is controlling the person and trying to break the hold. I am not just waiting for the knee as yes he will be throwing me while I am waiting for the knee.
The waist and other weaknesses were to give people things to think about. I am not saying that I can't keep my waist forward.

yep im MMA its slightly different... putting the leg forward and getting the hips close sets you up for a snatch single so you have to be careful...but it beats getting kneed in the head.

[bennyvt]

Its alot like a tie position (head control) in wrestling but with both hands. I tend to do the same thing as the head control is the one you want to get rid of. I am doing the jum sao/strike as soon as I realise he has my head. Not waiting for a strike or knee. I realise there are lots of ways to stop getting into that spot but one of the guys I do stuff with just come back from thai land and he keeps on taking my punches and going for the plum. If I let him really get me he does throw me like a rag doll.

[Frost]

Its alot like a tie position (head control) in wrestling but with both hands. I tend to do the same thing as the head control is the one you want to get rid of. I am doing the jum sao/strike as soon as I realise he has my head. Not waiting for a strike or knee. I realise there are lots of ways to stop getting into that spot but one of the guys I do stuff with just come back from thai land and he keeps on taking my punches and going for the plum. If I let him really get me he does throw me like a rag doll.

Try to avoid the plum, use lateral movement with straight strikes if possible and try to keep your arms in tight so he cant get inside control, alternatively if its MMA or shoot fighting you are doing and not just stand up change levels as he enters an simply hit a body lock or attack the legs

I know what you mean though one of our pros also fights Thai and I outweigh him by 20kg but my feet still leave the ground when he locks the position in

[t_niehoff]

Terrence, thanks man. No theory. This is what I do against people when caught in a maui thai clinch. Yes the whole don't get in it is great. But not practicle. Eventually you will end up there. What Vt can you use to get out.

There is a WORLD of difference between being caught in the plumb of someone who is skilled at it and being in the grip of someone who isn't very skilled. The latter is a waste of time, and actually is counter-productive.

That you were talking about punching while in the plumb tells me you are not dealing with anyone who is any good -- a good plumb will take that away. You'd see that straight away. Nor will you be able to use jum sao to block knees, a knee will smash through them. So if you are punching and using jum sao, you are training with people who have a terrible plumb. And that leads to training to fail since you start developing answers/techniques that work not because your answers/techniques are good/sound but because the questions/what he's doing is so bad.

BTW, the very first thing ANYONE must do when caught in a plumb is shrug their shoulders (which helps you keep your posture).

And, I take exception to those who talk about putting a leg forward when caught in the plumb. His power is side-to-side, and if you put a leg forward, he will more easily be able to twist you. You want to have a square/parallel stance with your knees/toes pointed slightly out as this makes you much more stable.

The jum sao is controlling the person and trying to break the hold. I am not just waiting for the knee as yes he will be throwing me while I am waiting for the knee.
The waist and other weaknesses were to give people things to think about. I am not saying that I can't keep my waist forward.

You are not going to break the plumb hold with a jum sao.

[Frost]

And, I take exception to those who talk about putting a leg forward when caught in the plumb. His power is side-to-side, and if you put a leg forward, he will more easily be able to twist you. You want to have a square/parallel stance with your knees/toes pointed slightly out as this makes you much more stable.
.

YOu can take exception all you want its a forum

Interesting, I find he is more able to twist me if I am off balance, and with a stable stance and my leg close to his I am also able to block the knee more with the leg and take away his ability to of balance me.

If you get your head under your hips he cant pull your head down because he is pulling into your lead leg, even with a strong square stance you still run the risk of a snap down or being pulled over your base, and one slightly off balance the ragging can begin

is it the only way to defend no but this is how my coach has taught this defence to us, he likes it because in an MMA context it allows you to gut the under hook and attack the body