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Thread: Reaching Rules of Thumb

  1. #1
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    Reaching Rules of Thumb

    What do you guys tell your students to help them to understand what reaching is.

  2. #2
    i'm not a teacher just a student, how would you explain it to me

    thanks in advance

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    Quote Originally Posted by HumbleWCGuy View Post
    What do you guys tell your students to help them to understand what reaching is.
    From a boxer's perspective, on defense ANYTIME your hands leave your guard (BOTH your hands are up by your chin/head covering you - hence the term "guard": you are guarded from being hit - and whenever they move from that position you create openings) to attempt to engage your opponent's hands/arm to deal with his punches, it is considered reaching -- you reach by moving your hands from guard and moving toward his hand/arm (your reach for it). Sound boxing maintains your hands in close proximity to your head/body when you catch, parry, etc. so that you are always protected -- even if you miss the catch, parry, etc. and even if you are responding to a feint/fake. The hands never extend away from the guard on defense, only on offense.

    On offense, reaching is when you over-extend and/or unbalance yourself (come out of your stance) in an attempt to strike something that is out of range.
    Last edited by t_niehoff; 08-14-2010 at 11:29 AM.

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    cool, post that on a boxing forum for people that give two 5hits

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    Quote Originally Posted by t_niehoff View Post
    From a boxer's perspective, on defense ANYTIME your hands leave your guard (BOTH your hands are up by your chin/head covering you - hence the term "guard": you are guarded from being hit - and whenever they move from that position you create openings) to attempt to engage your opponent's hands/arm to deal with his punches, it is considered reaching -- you reach by moving your hands from guard and moving toward his hand/arm (your reach for it). Sound boxing maintains your hands in close proximity to your head/body when you catch, parry, etc. so that you are always protected -- even if you miss the catch, parry, etc. and even if you are responding to a feint/fake. The hands never extend away from the guard on defense, only on offense.

    On offense, reaching is when you over-extend and/or unbalance yourself (come out of your stance) in an attempt to strike something that is out of range.
    Care to provide the Wing Chun take?

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    Quote Originally Posted by weakstudent View Post
    i'm not a teacher just a student, how would you explain it to me

    thanks in advance
    Happily, on some level I treat each Wing Chun parry as it's own entity. Therefore the precise execution of each block varies. The goal of every WC man is to not be there when the strike comes, the parry is just there as an insurance policy. However, if the footwork goes to plan, you won't actually block anything. My biggest concern with students is that they are trying to block punches that aren't threats. My good students will flash a block but only make contact if the strike is on target. if the strike is on target the goal is to make the strike miss by a small margin of 2-3 inches.
    Second, is to obey the box theory which is essentially executing all of your blocks as if you and your opponent. are within a refrigerator box that is no more than 3 inches larger than you.

    I teach the defense in layers. Blocks should involve as many layers of defense as possible being the hand/arm, shoulder, and head movement. Every block can't involve every layer but the more layers of defense available the more confidence that a student has to not reach. This idea in conjunction with footwork means that every strike that gets through should have gone through an average of 3 layers of defense.

    Specific pak advice: Don't get lazy and push down too much.


    Specific bong advice. Don't use it unless the body shots are killing you or to catch kicks.
    Last edited by HumbleWCGuy; 08-14-2010 at 04:27 PM.

  7. #7
    care to share?


    However, if the footwork goes to plan, you won't actually block anything.

    what is the goal of your footwork?


    My biggest concern with students is that they are trying to block punches that aren't threats. My good students will flash a block but only make contact if the strike is on target. if the strike is on target the goal is to make the strike miss by a small margin of 2-3 inches.


    how do you generate power for the block?

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by HumbleWCGuy View Post
    Care to provide the Wing Chun take?
    There isn't a "WCK-take". WCK's method of fighting does not involve blocking, parrying, etc. like boxers or kickboxers (which is why classical WCK terminology doesn't include terms like block or parry) -- it is not for outside fighting.

    If someone wants to develop good outside fighting skills then they should go train at a good boxing or MT or kickboxing gym.

    Training WCK kickboxing is training to fail.

    However, there is something in WCK that pertains to the notion of reaching. There is a training kuit that says "strength must be exacting in position, never overextended." Of course, this pertains to contact.
    Last edited by t_niehoff; 08-14-2010 at 05:14 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hendrik View Post
    care to share?


    However, if the footwork goes to plan, you won't actually block anything.

    what is the goal of your footwork?
    In the context of basic WC, I would just say To put me in a position to hit and not be hit. The priority of course is to not get hit. Every strike requires footwork to generate optimal power.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hendrik View Post
    My biggest concern with students is that they are trying to block punches that aren't threats. My good students will flash a block but only make contact if the strike is on target. if the strike is on target the goal is to make the strike miss by a small margin of 2-3 inches.

    how do you generate power for the block?
    It is somewhat block specific IMO, but generally speaking the idea is to obey the immovable elbow principle, keep the elbows down, and use footwork to minimize the strength needed to "block." In my opinion, it isn't so much that a block is powerful as it is the effectiveness of the block which involves footwork, proper arm mechanics, shoulder mechanics, and the use of the shoulder.
    Last edited by HumbleWCGuy; 08-14-2010 at 05:22 PM.

  10. #10
    Thanks and appreciate for your sharing!


    Quote Originally Posted by HumbleWCGuy View Post
    In the context of basic WC, I would just say To put me in a position to hit and not be hit. The priority of course is to not get hit. Every strike requires footwork to generate optimal power.

    My biggest concern with students is that they are trying to block punches that aren't threats. My good students will flash a block but only make contact if the strike is on target. if the strike is on target the goal is to make the strike miss by a small margin of 2-3 inches.


    It is somewhat block specific IMO, but generally speaking the idea is to obey the immovable elbow principle, keep the elbows down, and use footwork to minimize the strength needed to "block." In my opinion, it isn't so much that a block is powerful as it is the effectiveness of the block which involves footwork, proper arm mechanics, shoulder mechanics, and the use of the shoulder.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by t_niehoff View Post
    There isn't a "WCK-take". WCK's method of fighting does not involve blocking, parrying, etc. like boxers or kickboxers (which is why classical WCK terminology doesn't include terms like block or parry) -- it is not for outside fighting.

    If someone wants to develop good outside fighting skills then they should go train at a good boxing or MT or kickboxing gym.

    Training WCK kickboxing is training to fail.

    However, there is something in WCK that pertains to the notion of reaching. There is a training kuit that says "strength must be exacting in position, never overextended." Of course, this pertains to contact.
    How is it that Alan manages to teach his guys to kickbox with CSL if WC cannot kickbox?

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hendrik View Post
    Thanks and appreciate for your sharing!
    Turning the body is nice too when possible. Do you have any thoughts to add?

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by t_niehoff View Post
    There isn't a "WCK-take". WCK's method of fighting does not involve blocking, parrying, etc. like boxers or kickboxers (which is why classical WCK terminology doesn't include terms like block or parry) -- it is not for outside fighting.

    If someone wants to develop good outside fighting skills then they should go train at a good boxing or MT or kickboxing gym.

    Training WCK kickboxing is training to fail.

    However, there is something in WCK that pertains to the notion of reaching. There is a training kuit that says "strength must be exacting in position, never overextended." Of course, this pertains to contact.

    you dont know what you are talking about regarding VT.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by HumbleWCGuy View Post
    Turning the body is nice too when possible. Do you have any thoughts to add?

    What i heard is WCK short Jin Power generation becomes important here;

    This is because there are time and often the footwork is not adequate and imperfect;
    one will run out of time or space, one will encounter the opponents' changing in his attacked; and one doesnt want to reach out but still could accelerate one's momentum to catch the action.

  15. #15
    reaching is bad , why ? ask yourself, what is the ck for ? To practice spinning fast to practice walking left, right, to turn fast and walk again

    We have an axis line, so does the opponent. bridges give axis to the axis lines [sorry].

    We generate force as we move towards our opponents with our own body mass in motion.
    If we step first as we 'reach' we lose the momentum of the body mass available.
    A simple way to show this involves offering an arm to a student to remove however they like from their intended strike path. You simply resist their attempts ...if they are using a bad 'idea' , they will step first, then to reach with arms second, THEN hit hah ! a strong well trained vt fighter will simply hold their lead arm [man sao] outstretched and laugh at the continuing attempts to remove the arm. until he offers help to fix the , dilema.

    Maintaining the vertical axis body line is simply aligning your body to deliver its 'weight' in motion , coupled with whatever techniques your using, anything from a simple punch, or po-pai....doesnt matter what the hands do, as long as they do it WITH the body...all together, not step,lean, pak sao, then punch bring rear foot up... all done in a 1,2,3,4...etc...

    Once the student learns what they have to do to remove an arm using their momentum, they can also be shown that they are overdoing it, by simply removing the same arm you held up rigidly....if they fly past you out of control leaning etc...then they arent moving the axis line as CK , but reaching still and out control.
    A good example of this is when you try to evade the attack by side stepping a foot or 2, the person simply turns and faces you , turning on their axis line effortlessly...allowing them to maintain their attack even if you go walk about...controlled movement with ballistic displacment in the hands and body momentum to back it up further....people with small frames, women, etc..can generate tremendous force when timed like this into explosive attacks or counters.


    begginers tend to reach as a tentative 'control' hand becasue they are hesitating to enter and attack with gusto ...

    More chum kil to avoid leaning back, forward, sideways...
    Last edited by k gledhill; 08-14-2010 at 05:49 PM.

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