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Thread: Reaching Rules of Thumb

  1. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by k gledhill View Post
    if they are using a bad 'idea' , they will step first, then to reach with arms, second THEN hit hah ! a strong well trained vt fighter will simply hold their lead arm outstretched and laugh at the continuing attempts to remove the arm.


    What does this mean? care to explain?

  2. #17
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    Most arts just have a piece of the story. Boxing is no different. Boxing deficiencies show up real quickly against guys who can kick to the head and when small gloves are used. WC can looks deficient when when when it can't control the range.

    Everything looks deficient when T. does it.

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hendrik View Post
    What does this mean? care to explain?
    I believe that it is a tactic to goad people into engaging in a chi sao like battle.

  4. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Hendrik View Post
    What does this mean? care to explain?
    the use of bad timing...VT tries to execute simultaneous actions.

    a vt fighter, can hold a lead man sao outstretched and create a 'line' barrier.....part of centerline fighting. Part of fighting drills incorporate line maintenance drills by simply alternating the lead man sao and changing angles,shifting stances without any strikes...helps stop chasing 'offline'. Re-enforces the confidence to simply attack and defend along YOUR lines of engagement, rather than 'fight hands' you attack the face

  5. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by HumbleWCGuy View Post
    I believe that it is a tactic to goad people into engaging in a chi sao like battle.

    the opposite, its to rid you of the idea that you want to 'touch' my hands any longer than you have to, to strike me with your punches. Drill stuff, we dont 'battle' in chi-sao

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by k gledhill View Post
    the opposite, its to rid you of the idea that you want to 'touch' my hands any longer than you have to, to strike me with your punches. Drill stuff, we dont 'battle' in chi-sao
    I am not clear on what the hand out is doing. Clarify with a specific scenario so that I can better understand your aim.

  7. #22
    I am simply offering some 'meat' for the partner, drilling. I place my lead arm rigidly along my centerline. He tries to use a 'technique' to clear a shot to my face , making my arm the 'lever' to my axis line. My stance is also acting as a barrier, due to the stable nature of a vt stance. To create an opening of this line and structure integrity, the partner needs to use a displacing action to clear a small path for their punching attack...iow, their aim is not to over trap, reach and touch my arm for any longer then they have to , to make an attacking punch...once this 'punch' is achieved the hand they removed doesnt need to be 'touched' only my face because im to busy attacking face....to worry about touching your arm.

    You can also suddenly remove the 'rigid' arm to also address, arm fighting. A very bad habit many VT do ....seeking to over control arms with their own hands, turning into pak sao attacks with no punches. Slap, slap....if you think your student is doing this, quickly remove your hands from their intended contact, suddenly, and watch their hands do everything 'except' hit you in the jaw.

    vt punches are capable of simultaneous attack and defense because of the elbow control from SLT.

    if you haven't learned the tan / jum striking ideas, then you wont be able to achieve this way of fighting. No jum sao, means your compensating for the lack of a 'partner' strike to tan by using a 'trap' or over controlling hand instead...no balance in your punching attacks, more one hand traps, one hand hits.

    kill the brain with punches, dont fight arms, they cant be knocked out with punches

    Above is a lot of words to describe a series of actions done in a millisecond the big bang theory is alive and doing well in VT
    Last edited by k gledhill; 08-14-2010 at 10:46 PM.

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by HumbleWCGuy View Post
    How is it that Alan manages to teach his guys to kickbox with CSL if WC cannot kickbox?
    Alan and his guys, like all sensible people today, cross train for MMA.

    WCK is for fighting in a phone booth.

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by k gledhill View Post
    the use of bad timing...VT tries to execute simultaneous actions.

    a vt fighter, can hold a lead man sao outstretched and create a 'line' barrier.....part of centerline fighting. Part of fighting drills incorporate line maintenance drills by simply alternating the lead man sao and changing angles,shifting stances without any strikes...helps stop chasing 'offline'. Re-enforces the confidence to simply attack and defend along YOUR lines of engagement, rather than 'fight hands' you attack the face
    Training to fail.

    If you fight at a distance and "hold a lead man sao outstretched" -- what many people teach as the WCK guard -- you aren't creating any barrier (where do you get such ideas?), you are only exposing yourself. This is precisely what a boxer wants you to do. Shifting stances and changing angles won't help you since boxers hit from all angles, and without needing to shift stances (so they are much faster since they only have to move their hands to change a line). All it takes is a round with a decent boxer to show you this.

    The man sao/wu sao "guard" you frequently see WCK people do is a common misapplication -- that is not a "guard" or a posture or a ready position but an ACTION used in establishing contact (as you do in the opening of the dummy). Like most actions/movements in WCK, it is commonly -- and poorly -- taught first as a fixed position (like holding your wu sao in front of your chest). Unfortunately, often people never get past this beginning stage. And since they only do unrealsitic training (they don't go that round with a decent boxer), they develop all kinds of unrealistic "ideas" -- like the above.

  10. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by k gledhill View Post
    the use of bad timing...VT tries to execute simultaneous actions.

    a vt fighter, can hold a lead man sao outstretched and create a 'line' barrier.....part of centerline fighting. Part of fighting drills incorporate line maintenance drills by simply alternating the lead man sao and changing angles,shifting stances without any strikes...helps stop chasing 'offline'. Re-enforces the confidence to simply attack and defend along YOUR lines of engagement, rather than 'fight hands' you attack the face

    Thanks !

  11. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by t_niehoff View Post
    Training to fail.

    If you fight at a distance and "hold a lead man sao outstretched" -- what many people teach as the WCK guard -- you aren't creating any barrier (where do you get such ideas?), you are only exposing yourself. This is precisely what a boxer wants you to do. Shifting stances and changing angles won't help you since boxers hit from all angles, and without needing to shift stances (so they are much faster since they only have to move their hands to change a line). All it takes is a round with a decent boxer to show you this.

    The man sao/wu sao "guard" you frequently see WCK people do is a common misapplication -- that is not a "guard" or a posture or a ready position but an ACTION used in establishing contact (as you do in the opening of the dummy). Like most actions/movements in WCK, it is commonly -- and poorly -- taught first as a fixed position (like holding your wu sao in front of your chest). Unfortunately, often people never get past this beginning stage. And since they only do unrealsitic training (they don't go that round with a decent boxer), they develop all kinds of unrealistic "ideas" -- like the above.
    Again, you don't understand VT. If you think I stand still and present a guard hand to a boxer while standing in a lead leg stance, moving back and forth

    Its a drilling idea to deal with a guy who just puts an arm in your way , like a jab , a grab , a defensive push, a pointing finger, aka to us a 'line of force'. It is just a training aid to develop a fighter, not the be all end all of our repertoire.
    And further to your joke of an understanding, we 'play' people by getting THEM to make the contact with US ...the reason we dont chase hands, think about it....why dont WE chase hands.
    Why is it such a cardinal error ?

    I know how you would fight me, you would fight my hands , not my face. You would seek contact first, not attacking first and constantly. Subtle but , glaringly obvious.
    Last edited by k gledhill; 08-15-2010 at 08:34 AM.

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by k gledhill View Post
    Again, you don't understand VT. If you think I stand still and present a guard hand to a boxer while standing in a lead leg stance, moving back and forth
    I understand perfectly what you are talking about -- I've seen it, and its variations, since I began WCK (almost 30 years ago).

    Its a drilling idea to deal with a guy who just puts an arm in your way , like a jab , a grab , a defensive push, a pointing finger, aka to us a 'line of force'. It is just a training aid to develop a fighter, not the be all end all of our repertoire.
    People don't put and hold some "arm in your way" -- on the outside they throw bombs from all directions, all angles, all ranges, while moving.

    And further to your joke of an understanding, we 'play' people by getting THEM to make the contact with US ...the reason we dont chase hands, think about it....why dont WE chase hands.
    Why is it such a cardinal error ?
    You don't seem to grasp what "chasing hands" means. It doesn't mean to not actively seek contact or maintain contact with an opponent (or his arms) but pertains to what your objective is with contact (what you are doing with your contact). If your objective is only to maintain contact, then you are chasing hands. It is purely defensive sticking.

    However, using contact/attachment actively, to try and control your opponent while striking him, is not chasing hands. In that case you are chasing control, and using your attachment to your opponent, regardless of what part of the opponent you are in contact with, to obtain that control.

    Letting an opponent initiate contact will put you behind the timing. That's not a good place to be.

    I know how you would fight me, you would fight my hands , not my face. You would seek contact first, not attacking first and constantly. Subtle but , glaringly obvious.
    No, you have no idea. I'm not going to be fighting your hands or your face. I am going to be controlling you, your whole body. I would be tossing you around like a rag doll while I continually thump you. You don't seem to grasp that my attack is what establishes the contact. And that I will break your structure on contact and keep it broken. That is WCK's method of fighting.
    Last edited by t_niehoff; 08-15-2010 at 09:32 AM.

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by t_niehoff View Post
    Alan and his guys, like all sensible people today, cross train for MMA.

    WCK is for fighting in a phone booth.
    He said that all he uses is CSL stand up. I guess he must be lying.

    I have pure CSL Wing Chun - that has all the stand up skills I need. Its not mixed with boxing or a mma. It works in MMA thats application of my wing chun. We have chinese Boxing skills - again application of our art. We don't need to mix it, we learn from other arts and see how we would do what we see within our wing chun framework, if its not within our prinicles then we would not use it.

    -Alan Orr



    http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/foru...&postcount=663



    Stand up - we have CSL Wing Chun.
    -Alan Orr

    http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/foru...&postcount=680

    There are a number of other posts that say the same thing referring to "I" Alan or "we' he and his students. I think that it would be accurate to say that we also refers to CSL as I am sure that he considers himself a representative of it.
    Last edited by HumbleWCGuy; 08-15-2010 at 01:02 PM.

  14. #29

    Yo!

    Quote Originally Posted by HumbleWCGuy View Post
    The goal of every WC man is to not be there when the strike comes.
    The goal of every Wing Chun Man should be to hit the other guy... Everything else facilitates that.

  15. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by HumbleWCGuy View Post
    In the context of basic WC, I would just say To put me in a position to hit and not be hit. The priority of course is to not get hit. Every strike requires footwork to generate optimal power.
    At the risk of seeming like I am picking on anyone... If my focus is on not getting hit, I will get hit. If my focus is on striking and I use good WC principles I should not get hit.

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