Profound respect for Si Kwok Lam and Yip Chun, re: Yuen Kay San

[reneritchie]

Classy and hopefully it'll receive proper coverage in the rest of the world, in all languages. Sad it couldn't happen before Sum Nung passed away though:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ash3CY-9Ovo

>Wing Chun master Si Kwok Lam and Yip Chun co-produced movie "Yip man", who had apologized 6 times and "served Tea" to Yuen Kay San's grandson(left in picture, wearing glasses) for misrepresenting and disrespectful to the Lengendary death dual champion during 1920-1950s during a news conference in China, Mr. Si and Yip admitted in front of documents and witness that Yuen Kay San represented Wing Chun family and answer all the public death duals in Foshan in those years, he is senior to Yipman in the Wing Chun family tree.

>Mr. Xi Kwok Lam (Yip Man’s son’s student and movie producer of the Ip Man 3) apologized and served tea to Yuen Jo Tong for misreprensenting his grandfather Yuen Kay San’s reputation and status in Wing Chun history. (In the movie, Yuen Kay San was portrayed as Yip Man’s younger Kung Fu brother, not as skillfull as Yipman)[9].

>Three Heroes of Wing Chun

>Yao Wing Ken (Yoa Choy’s grandson) explains that, "in the old days of Foshan, his grandfather Yao Choy, Yip Man and Yuen Kay San were called the "Three Heroes of Wing Chun" and often mentioned together. Yuen Kay San's disciple Leung Jan Sing also provided an ancestral document indicating that Yuen Kay San studied with Feng Shui Ching, while Yipman and others studied under Yuen. This record was passed down in the 70's of last century. Although Yip Man is not necessarily Yuen’s official student, in the order of seniority on the family tree, Yuen Kay San ranked at the first level, with Yip Man being last. It would be normal for Yip Man to ask Yuen Kay San for instruction.
Below is the original Chinese quoted from the original article in the Dayoo Newspaper of Guangzhou:

还原历史： 　　“咏春三雄”齐名 　 　姚永强介绍，当年在佛山，他的爷爷姚才与叶问、阮奇山并称“咏春三雄”，三人齐名，武功不相上下。阮奇山 的徒孙梁湛声还提供了祖传的记录，记录上写明， 阮奇山师从冯少青，而叶问与其他多个咏春武者一同在阮奇山的门下。“这本记录是上世纪70年代 留下的， 这也不能说叶问是他的徒弟，但论资历，阮奇山排第 一，叶问最后，叶问向他请教很正常。


^ "冼国林向阮祖棠斟茶道 (Xi Kwok Lam serves tea to Yuen Jo Tong)". Yang Sing National Newspaper (China). 2010. Retrieved 2010-07-16.
^ "还原历史： (Restore History)". Dayoo Newspaper (Guangzhou, China). 2010. Retrieved 2010-07-18.

[t_niehoff]

Classy and hopefully it'll receive proper coverage in the rest of the world, in all languages. Sad it couldn't happen before Sum Nung passed away though:

Yes, it is classy, but I think it will get very little if any coverage, and will be -- like most genuine and accurate historical facts about WCK -- disregarded by most (like it has been here).

[Pacman]

its important to know though. in the movie they made yuen kay san look like sh!t
its not about putting yip man down, its about giving yuen kay san his proper respect

in the KF museum in foshan (like a hall of fame), sum nung and yuen kay san are there, based on their accomplishments. yip man is not. yip man only became famous after bruce lee became famous. not even people like wong fei hong were admitted. only after the "once upon a time in china" movies came out, did wong fei hong's students petition for him to be there

yuen kay san would fight these matches and tell the historian au sui jee to give credit to leung jan because he did not want to attract attention to himself and his family. as a result, leung jan gained a lot of notoriety.

the "3 heroes of wing chun" title did not exist at the time yuen kay san was alive. this came later and yuen kay san's grandson actually accepted it because he wanted to ride some of bruce lee's fame too.

in guangdong the perspective of WC is very different

[Shadow_warrior8]

　羊城晚报记者 李丽

　　在电影《叶问前传》中，姚才和“小山”（被阮氏后人认为是影射阮奇山）被一帮日本人打倒，最后叶问赶到 ，横扫了日本人。这个情节被阮氏后人和姚氏后人认为有“诽谤嫌疑”，并向剧组提出抗议。昨日中午，羊城晚报 记者受邀前去见证《叶问前传》剧组来广州向阮奇山咏春派和姚才咏春派道歉。没想到，道歉会还没正式开始，双 方就再起争执，甚至差点开打！

　　时间：11:45

　　两派发声明指“侵权”

　　记者受邀于当日11时到海珠区某酒家会面，首先到场的是一些阮氏弟子，之后阮祖棠抵达。阮祖棠表示，电 影《叶问前传》以及同名漫画和小说对“咏春三雄”中姚才和阮奇山两位人物的形象进行了诋毁，并出示了他们拟 定的最新声明。这份名为《阮奇山咏春宗派、姚才咏春宗派关于对<叶问前传>伪造历史侵害名誉权的第二号联合 声明》，对电影《叶问前传》制片人冼国林此前在媒体上关于双方纷争的几点解释，譬如“电影上映后在海内外提 高了姚才和阮奇山的知名度”等等，一一作出了批驳，并指出《叶问前传》涉及总共六项侵权行为，包括电影、小 说和漫画《叶问前传》未经授权委托，盗用阮奇山、姚才姓名权用于商业行为；电影、小说和漫画《叶问前传》在 没有事实依据的情况下，对阮奇山、姚才进行贬损性、侮辱性描述，丑化其外在形象，构成名誉损害 。

　　时间：12:30

　　神秘老外激怒阮祖棠

　　电影《叶问前传》制片人冼国林一行按邀约时间，准点到达酒家，来到阮祖棠和弟子们所在房间的隔壁落座。 同行的还有从香港赶来的叶问之子叶准，以及佛山精武体育会会长梁旭辉———他在《叶问前传》中饰演当年的佛 山精武体育会会长李万豪。阮祖棠带记者们去隔壁房间跟对方会面，临行前他跟记者说，自己跟叶准还是第一次见 面，“我会在跟他握手的时候跟他说：‘没想到第一次见面是在这样的场合，我非常遗憾，也觉得很苦涩。’”没 想到还没入座，阮祖棠就突然猛击桌面玻璃，大声发飙：“这些人是打手吗？！”记者这才注意到，门口有五六位 年轻健壮的男老外，均双手放在背后齐齐站立。阮祖棠情绪激动地要求这些人出去，并喊来服务员关门，禁止让“ 闲杂人等”入内。

　　时间：12:40

　　老叶准劝阻双方干架

　　阮祖棠继续质疑几位神秘老外的来历，指对方“像黑社会”。冼国林尴尬解释，这是他师叔的弟子，而他们的 到来是为了见他以及商量《叶问4》的拍摄（冼国林称，他正积极筹拍《叶问4》，并想邀请梁朝伟担纲）。他说 自己并未授意这些老外进入房间，更非如阮祖棠所怀疑的那样，是他带来的“打手”，甚至表示“你可以检查我们 的火车票”。但阮祖棠表示不信，冼国林遂对天发誓：“如果我撒谎，就不得好死！”由于双方情绪激动，言辞激 烈，冼国林一度起身说：“我们走！”但被剧组其他人员劝阻。争吵中，阮祖棠及弟子与冼国林之间的距离逐渐拉 近，双方都摆开了动武的架势。此时，一直默默坐着的叶准迅速站起，及时拉住了冼国林，而另一边的姚氏后人则 劝阻了阮祖棠。阮祖棠稍微平静下来后，回头向身后的电视台记者们表示：“这段你们可以播出街！ ”

　　时间：13:00

　　冼国林低头斟茶认错

　　之后，双方进行了一个小时的“磋商”，但火药味未消。冼国林表示，在《叶问前传》中加入阮、姚两位前辈 的角色是考虑到弘扬咏春，不想只表现叶问一个人，但结果“好心办坏事”。对此，阮祖棠反驳：“《叶问前传》 确实让全世界都认识了阮奇山和姚才这两个人，但也让全世界都认识了阮奇山和姚才这两个‘仆街’！”意指电影 和小说、漫画传播的是两人“不堪一击”的恶名。对此，冼国林表示，电影中的设计纯属“无心之失”：“我希望 各门派都能互容互谅，互相尊重。我这次是诚心来道歉，你这么德高望重，有没有包容别人犯错的肚量？”之后举 杯向阮祖棠认错：“希望你大人大量，原谅我们。”之后，又向姚氏后人敬茶。

　　时间：14:00

　　阮祖棠要求更多“诚意”

　　虽然冼国林道了歉，但阮祖棠还是认为对方诚意不够，并一再强调自己的祖父阮奇山在武林的地位。冼国林承 认：“两位前辈是和我们师公（指叶问）齐名的，并称‘咏春三雄’。是我做错了，没理解他人的感受。”其间， 叶准表示，他之所以来，是因为叶、阮、姚三家是世交，“既然上一代都是好朋友，我不希望今天大家闹得不愉快 ，希望能基于前辈的感情，好好处理这件事”。

　　有记者问阮祖棠除了指出对方侵权外，还想“点算（怎么办）”。他表示：“现在电影还在发行，侵权还在继 续。既然他们知道错了，‘点算’应该由他们自己去想！”冼国林表示，他会考虑在更多的地方发表道歉声明，“ 只是现在我都道歉不下五次了，不知道还能怎么做”。另外，漫画方面是否能登道歉启事，他无法决定，还须去沟 通。姚氏后人则表示，自己跟冼国林等人向来关系尚好，他们暂只提出道歉声明能否在佛山当地电视台播出的要求 。

　　李丽

http://news.qq.com/a/20100715/001464.htm

[Shadow_warrior8]

This is the second article in entirely
http://culture.china.com.cn/lishi/20...t_20450101.htm

The old pictures of Master Yuen and Master Yiu Choi were fantastic
Description of Master Yiu
世居佛山普君墟安天坊，腕力惊人，人称“大力才”。
Description of Master Yuen
将咏春门的拳、桩、刀、棍等功技集一身，人称“佛山阮老揸”。

This tea offering was a gracious gesture, because the 3 men were heros and had good relations.

影片出品人回应称片中两前辈形象是正义的，并无污蔑宗师之意

电影《叶问前传》目前正在火爆上映，“咏春拳”再次家喻户晓。广东武术名家叶问也再度被搬上银幕，但电影中 姚才、阮奇山这两位叶问师兄弟成了“反面陪衬”，引起广佛两地阮氏、姚氏后人的一致声讨。昨日，电影中姚才 、阮奇山的嫡系传人向本报记者发表声明，怒斥电影把“咏春三雄”之中的一代宗师姚才、阮奇山丑化成不堪一击 的小混混，诋毁先师形象，在国内外咏春学界都引起震动。他们要求剧组公开道歉，恢复先师名誉，否则将与对方 对簿公堂。对此，该电影出品人冼国林则回应称：“这是好心做坏事，我只是想向全世界推广咏春三 雄。”

电影回放：姚才、“小山”两三下被击败

随着电影《叶问前传》的热映，广州、佛山两地近10万名阮氏、姚氏后人和徒孙却再也坐不住了。

电影开端，“咏春三雄”出现在叶问与妻子张永成的邂逅之地，当时一位大爷想侮辱张永成，叶问与姚才、小山挺 身而出，把坏人打得落花流水。张永成问几人的姓名，姚才、小山称“我们都是佛山咏春派，你可以叫我们‘咏春 三雄’。”

引发争议的是电影末段，大师兄吴仲素带领着两位师弟姚才、小山，前往桑园，企图找出杀害精武会会长的凶手叶 天赐，阮奇山与姚才发现一群师兄妹被捆绑在房间内，正欲打救之时，一名手持长刀的蒙面黑衣杀手出现，此人正 是他们寻找的叶天赐。黑衣人发动猛烈攻势，只是几招，便把两人打得落花流水。另一边厢，大师兄吴仲素也被日 本武士打败，千钧一发之时叶问赶到，搭救了他们3人，还打败了叶天赐。

后人声讨：

片中一代宗师不堪一击？

片中姚才、阮奇山与叶天赐对打的一段，引起了佛山姚氏、阮氏弟子的强烈不满。姚才的嫡系传人姚忠强表示：“ 他们是佛山的咏春三雄，彼此武功不相上下，但在片中不到两三下就被击败。”他表示，早前《叶问前传》在佛山 杀青时，他已向出品人冼国林说明“可以拍咏春三雄，但不能拍姚才、阮奇山被打倒在地。”而当时冼国林也口头 应允，称姚才、阮奇山等一代宗师在电影中绝对是正面形象。

“我们习武之人对宗派相当看重。电影公映后，我们姚氏、阮氏海内外20多万的弟子都知道了，大家觉得这是对 我们祖先的污蔑。”对于是否看过后期剧本，姚忠强表示：“冼国林没有征求过我们的意见，除了打过一次电话， 也没把剧本给我们看。”

公开声明：

“咏春三雄”绝非浪得虚名

前天，已年逾七旬的阮奇山嫡孙阮祖棠专程从广州赶往佛山，与姚才嫡孙姚汉强等人商讨如何为祖父讨回声誉。昨 天，阮祖棠与姚汉强、姚永强、姚忠强等人联合发表声明。对《叶问前传》剧组诋毁一代宗师的做法 进行谴责。

声明称：“咏春三雄”的姚才以及被蔑称为“小山”的阮奇山，不仅是广东武林真实存在的历史人物，而且是广东 武林史上尊称“咏春三雄”其中两位名声显赫的公众人物。《叶问前传》在毫无历史事实根据的情况下，捏造纯属 子虚乌有的虚假“史实”和贬损性描述，对阮奇山和姚才本人构成污蔑诽谤，同时对阮奇山咏春宗派和姚才咏春宗 派及其亲缘后人构成伤害后果。

下午，姚忠强与阮奇山的徒孙梁湛声同时接受本报采访。他们出示了自己爷爷宗师年轻时的照片。画面中所见，姚 才个子较高，身材粗壮，而阮奇山则相对清瘦。“你们看，电影中的姚才很瘦，但爷爷当年很壮的。他们在片中看 上去像是叶问的跟班。”姚忠强忿忿地说。

据了解，“咏春三雄”之一的阮奇山，武林中有“佛山阮老揸”之声誉，上世纪二十年代已是广东武术界的领袖人 物之一，咏春派一代宗师。自上世纪二十年代起，阮奇山咏春派和姚才咏春派就已开始承传发展，至今门下传人遍 及全世界30多个国家和地区。该两大宗派传人以最保守计算，已超过20万以上。

还原历史：

“咏春三雄”功夫难分高下

姚才的大孙子姚永强介绍，当年在佛山，他的爷爷姚才与叶问、阮奇山并称“咏春三雄”，三人齐名。后来叶问去 了香港，阮奇山去了广州，姚才则留在了佛山。他们三人的咏春拳各有特点，自成流派，但却难分高下。他说，作 为叶问大师兄的姚才，以动作快、功底厚著称，人称“大力才”，姚才一派的咏春拳也因此被称为“快手咏春”。 “爷爷自小好慕武术，之后跟随吴仲素习武，其时阮奇山、叶问也常往吴武馆请教，三人常交流切磋，三人的武功 不相上下。”

姚永强表示，他5岁时，祖父常与叶问在佛山普君墟习武切磋，祖父的功夫绝非浪得虚名。当时，叶问与姚才、阮 奇山三人“好得穿一条裤子”。

“电影为了衬托叶问的功夫高强，把我们的先祖描述成功夫不堪一击的小混混，实在是难以接受。”

阮奇山的徒孙梁湛声昨天还提供了祖传的记录，记录上写明，阮奇山师从冯少青，而叶问与其他多个咏春武者一同 在阮奇山的门下。“这本记录是上世纪70年代留下的，虽然不能说叶问是他的徒弟，但论资历，阮奇山排第一， 叶问最后，叶问向他请教也是正常事情。绝非电影中描述的那样需要叶问来搭救。”

两派后人：

要求澄清事实真相

两派后人在声明中提出：“《叶问前传》对阮、姚两位前辈的造谣诽谤，对两大主流宗派的承传人和亲缘后人的感 情造成极大伤害，会将两大兄弟派系推向对立面的不智之举，如果不紧急刹车，采取相应补救措施，将给叶问派系 置于孤立窘状，并可能沦落到武术界万众所指的境地。”

阮氏、姚氏后人昨天表示，对于《叶问前传》伪造历史对阮奇山、姚才的名誉侵害，他们要求剧组公开道歉，并澄 清事实真相。如果这一要求得不到满足，将通过法律途径和对方对簿公堂。

出品方：

本意是推广不同派系咏春的特色

阮氏、姚氏后人的强烈声讨，也把热播电影《叶问前传》推上了风口浪尖中。

昨日下午，该影片出品人冼国林给本报记者回复电话称，对于这场因电影情节引发的武林纷争，他也很无奈。“首 先，我要声明，电影中的前半部分是真实故事，而后半部分是虚构的，现实中并无叶天赐这个人，所以姚才、阮奇 山两位宗师被打败是虚构的。我承认忽略了其后人、弟子的感受，这是好心做了坏事。”

其次，电影的出发点是宣传“咏春三雄”，他们三位都是咏春大师，电影上映后海外很多人都知道了“咏春三雄” 中的姚才和阮奇山，大大提高了两位宗师的知名度，而且“为了加插姚才、阮奇山两位前辈的戏份，我多花了数十 万元制作及宣传费用”，目的就是希望慢慢向外推广不同派系咏春的特色，片中，两位前辈都是正义 的。

再次，电影中称呼阮奇山为“小山”，是昵称，而不是污蔑。电影中三位武术宗师都是年轻人，他们之间称呼彼此 有昵称也是正常的。

冼国林也给记者转发了他回复姚忠强的多条信息，其中一条信息称“如果好心而做到误解，日后亲自请罪。”（廖 银洁、肖欢欢）

[Shadow_warrior8]

its important to know though. in the movie they made yuen kay san look like sh!t
its not about putting yip man down, its about giving yuen kay san his proper respect

in the KF museum in foshan (like a hall of fame), sum nung and yuen kay san are there, based on their accomplishments. yip man is not. yip man only became famous after bruce lee became famous. not even people like wong fei hong were admitted. only after the "once upon a time in china" movies came out, did wong fei hong's students petition for him to be there

yuen kay san would fight these matches and tell the historian au sui jee to give credit to leung jan because he did not want to attract attention to himself and his family. as a result, leung jan gained a lot of notoriety.

the "3 heroes of wing chun" title did not exist at the time yuen kay san was alive. this came later and yuen kay san's grandson actually accepted it because he wanted to ride some of bruce lee's fame too.

in guangdong the perspective of WC is very different

Yes the producers did, that was not good. Yuen Kay san and Yiu Choi were heros on their own

Thats why the chinese goverment build Ip Man Tong for Ip Man. Ip man was famous with Yiu Choi and Yuen Kay San, and that was before Bruce Lee. Hence the stories of Ip Man in Fatshan and his exploits. If Yuen Jo Tong only accepted it later because of Bruce Lee fame, then so did Yiu Family?

Waiting to see historical documents, a website in chinese- there are heaps about wingchun in china, or even an interview from the Yuen Family or Yiu Choi family, Fung Family or even Ip man Fatshan students say this

Yuen Jo Tong? seems like an honourable man. He is doing a great job defending his grandfathers name who everyone in guangzhou already knew. Not sure about this. Again, same criteria as above I found the 3 heros tag on many articles and it was supposed to reference to when they were still young in guangzhou, before Ip Man left

[reneritchie]

It's not just the movie. It's 60 years of lying about Wing Chun Kuen history.

What was said in Hong Kong and the West was not what happened, and not what the same people said when they went back to Foshan and Guangzhou.

The movie was probably just the catalyst to start making things right.

This is martial arts. No one needs to lie about history; the ultimate proof is always and only if a sifu can make a student better.

To have Yuen Kay-San and his achievements displaced, demeaned, and disrespected for 60 years. It was an attempt to deny Yuen Kay-San his legacy and practitioners all over the world his heritage. It was a travesty that hopefully this begins to set right.

Every branch has had their controversy, every student has likely felt their teacher hasn't received some form of credit or another over the years.

To have had that systematically written in books and articles everywhere outside mainland China since the 1950s -- I'd ask everyone here to try and imagine what that is like, and then imagine how it must feel to the Yuen family now.

Vindication, I imagine.

[chusauli]

This is great news!

Yuen Kay Shan was never Ng Jung So's student, and is higher in the genealogy than Yip Man.

[Phil Redmond]

This is great news!

Yuen Kay Shan was never Ng Jung So's student, and is higher in the genealogy than Yip Man.

I once heard that Yip Man himself never said he was "The" Grandmaster of WC. He obviously recognized his seniors.

[chusauli]

I once heard that Yip Man himself never said he was "The" Grandmaster of WC. He obviously recognized his seniors.

That's quite true; He even knew that Chan Wah Shun's son was Chan Wah Shun's inheritor, not even Ng Jung So.

So it would not be where Yip Man ever claims he was the "Jeung Mun Yan" (Gatekeeper of WCK). He could only claim head of his own tradition.

[LoneTiger108]

Every branch has had their controversy, every student has likely felt their teacher hasn't received some form of credit or another over the years.

To have had that systematically written in books and articles everywhere outside mainland China since the 1950s -- I'd ask everyone here to try and imagine what that is like, and then imagine how it must feel to the Yuen family now.

It's very interesting to see this sort of family issue being dealt with so publically. It makes me quite uncomfortable to be honest, as I too come from a family that has been very misunderstood by the general Wing Chun community.

I can't tell you how it made me feel to actually support the Ip Man Tong opening by flying all the way to Foshan only to see absolutely no record of Lee Shing at all. Considering he was the only European representative of Ip Man in the sixties, I found it very strange indeed. His contribution was literally side-lined and I felt my heart sink for my own Sifu, as he knows the Ip Family quite well.

It was explained back in 1997 by Ip Chun to my Sifu, and pretty much sounds like the same issue. Lee Shing was his own man. His way of Wing Chun was different to Ip Man and Ip Chun felt that this was a good enough reason for us to 'take care of ourselves'.

So, I didn't hold any bad feelings at all until I went to Foshan, and then I saw the movies too and Lee Shings name was never even mentioned! I can't imagine how I would feel if the movie portrayed him in a bad way, but it is just a movie!!

Look at what happened to 'Dragon - the Bruce Lee Story'

[Shadow_warrior8]

It's not just the movie. It's 60 years of lying about Wing Chun Kuen history.

What was said in Hong Kong and the West was not what happened, and not what the same people said when they went back to Foshan and Guangzhou.

The movie was probably just the catalyst to start making things right.

This is martial arts. No one needs to lie about history; the ultimate proof is always and only if a sifu can make a student better.

To have Yuen Kay-San and his achievements displaced, demeaned, and disrespected for 60 years. It was an attempt to deny Yuen Kay-San his legacy and practitioners all over the world his heritage. It was a travesty that hopefully this begins to set right.

Every branch has had their controversy, every student has likely felt their teacher hasn't received some form of credit or another over the years.

To have had that systematically written in books and articles everywhere outside mainland China since the 1950s -- I'd ask everyone here to try and imagine what that is like, and then imagine how it must feel to the Yuen family now.

Vindication, I imagine.

Rene, all lineages have their lies like you said. Today even Ip Man Lineage students who have benefited from him tell lies to justify their story.

Yuen Kay San was a great man, so was Yiu Choi

Description of Master Yiu
世居佛山普君墟安天坊，腕力惊人，人称“大力才”。
Description of Master Yuen
将咏春门的拳、桩、刀、棍等功技集一身，人称“佛山阮老揸”。

I see in china Master Yuen was, still is held in high esteem. Dont see it that he was lied about for 60 years. Ip Man on the other hand, many lineages spin lies about him and his abilities. Now that is a real shame. Wingchun is known around the world because of him, no matter whether anyone wants to agree or like it.

This is the video proper of Yuen family and Yiu Family voiceing their displeasure about the movie with the actual interviews.
http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMTg3MDY2NTky.html

[Pacman]

well being a legend or not a legend is subjective.

but just ask yourself when ip man tong was built (2002). there are no stories of ip man in fatsan, except for the ones created by the movie in which it is acknowledged as fiction

actually, ip man had went to japan to study for a while, so he knew a little japanese. it was because of this that he was hired by the japanese invaders to translate for them.

so ip man was more like the cop in the first movie than the ip man in the first movie.

the richest man in fatsan who lazily trains KF? That sounds more like yuen kay san. yuen's father owned the entire firework industry in fatsan. he never worked a day in his life. all he did was practice KF. his father paid huge sums of gold and silver to fung siu ching for training

ip man's dad was an opium boat captain.

Yes the producers did, that was not good. Yuen Kay san and Yiu Choi were heros on their own

Thats why the chinese goverment build Ip Man Tong for Ip Man. Ip man was famous with Yiu Choi and Yuen Kay San, and that was before Bruce Lee. Hence the stories of Ip Man in Fatshan and his exploits. If Yuen Jo Tong only accepted it later because of Bruce Lee fame, then so did Yiu Family?

Waiting to see historical documents, a website in chinese- there are heaps about wingchun in china, or even an interview from the Yuen Family or Yiu Choi family, Fung Family or even Ip man Fatshan students say this

Yuen Jo Tong? seems like an honourable man. He is doing a great job defending his grandfathers name who everyone in guangzhou already knew. Not sure about this. Again, same criteria as above I found the 3 heros tag on many articles and it was supposed to reference to when they were still young in guangzhou, before Ip Man left

http://www.wingchunpedia.org/pmwiki/...CP.YuenKayShan

Yuen Kay accepted a very limited number of students and only had one disciple, Sum Num. Yip Man (The man that brought Wing Chun to Hong Kong in 1949 and first taught the system to the public) and his family, were neighbors of the Yuen’s. Yip Man’s father was a fellow merchant of Yuen Chong Ming. Yip Man’s grandfather had been an opium boat captain and some locals took exception to him gaining wealth in that fashion so burnt down the Yip estate. Yuen’s father took the Yip clan in and housed them in his estate for a time. During this time Yuen Chong Ming asked Yuen to teach young Yip Man some Chi Sau as Young Yip had not learnt this from his quasi teacher, Ng Chung So. Yuen wasn’t happy doing this as Yip was Ng’s student and did different Wing Chun. However, at His father’s urging, Yuen did teach Yip a little chi sau. Yip was asked not to show this to his elder gwoon brothers but later did so, defeating them. Yuen Kay also taught his Friend Wong Jing, who would later pass his art down to his son Mai Gai Wong.

[Shadow_warrior8]

I once heard that Yip Man himself never said he was "The" Grandmaster of WC. He obviously recognized his seniors.

He never said he was grandmaster. From what we know from Sigung Ip Ching and Sifu Samuel Kwok, he was a humble man, and he seldom talk about wingchun outside of class even to his sons. Sigung Ip Ching would know, he lived with him in the last 10 years of his life.

[Shadow_warrior8]

well being a legend or not a legend is subjective.

but just ask yourself when ip man tong was built (2002). there are no stories of ip man in fatsan, except for the ones created by the movie in which it is acknowledged as fiction

actually, ip man had went to japan to study for a while, so he knew a little japanese. it was because of this that he was hired by the japanese invaders to translate for them.

so ip man was more like the cop in the first movie than the ip man in the first movie.

the richest man in fatsan who lazily trains KF? That sounds more like yuen kay san. yuen's father owned the entire firework industry in fatsan. he never worked a day in his life. all he did was practice KF. his father paid huge sums of gold and silver to fung siu ching for training

ip man's dad was an opium boat captain.




http://www.wingchunpedia.org/pmwiki/...CP.YuenKayShan

Yuen Kay accepted a very limited number of students and only had one disciple, Sum Num. Yip Man (The man that brought Wing Chun to Hong Kong in 1949 and first taught the system to the public) and his family, were neighbors of the Yuen’s. Yip Man’s father was a fellow merchant of Yuen Chong Ming. Yip Man’s grandfather had been an opium boat captain and some locals took exception to him gaining wealth in that fashion so burnt down the Yip estate. Yuen’s father took the Yip clan in and housed them in his estate for a time. During this time Yuen Chong Ming asked Yuen to teach young Yip Man some Chi Sau as Young Yip had not learnt this from his quasi teacher, Ng Chung So. Yuen wasn’t happy doing this as Yip was Ng’s student and did different Wing Chun. However, at His father’s urging, Yuen did teach Yip a little chi sau. Yip was asked not to show this to his elder gwoon brothers but later did so, defeating them. Yuen Kay also taught his Friend Wong Jing, who would later pass his art down to his son Mai Gai Wong.

Since I have a part in the website years back and realise the source and who was writing it up. I reserve my comments to say, some of those "truths" need be updated

There are clear videos and interviews of Kwok fu and lun gai as fighters and "invincible" in fatshan, they have honoured Ip Man for years there.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-OH1PR7uDQ

Kwok fu clearly said Yuen Kay San would come to Ip Man's house and garden when they were training. I would not say anymore of what he said here. But its in his video interview.
Kwok fu's son is pretty famous too in Fatshan.

A good e.g on that site, Yiu Choi taught Ip Man, Yiu family have publicly said it was not so.