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Originally Posted by CFT
the book is written by Ou Shen Jee. he was a famous writer from the last century who lived to be 105 years old. among others, he wrote a book on yuen kay san and the 6.5 point staff and his fight with wong fei hong. he is not a part of the yuen kay san lineage
where did you hear chan wah shun fighting wong fei hong?
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i see. perhaps both defeated WFH at some point. who knows. to give credit to YKS' story, it is worthwhile to note that it was written by a third party
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Stories aside, I think it's fair to say that for the last 50s many people outside mainland China took advantage of the Bamboo curtain to make it seem, either through fabrication or omission, that there was only one WCK.
We know that this is not the case, we know it's never been the case. That's not only a disservice to the other branches of the art, it's a disservice to every branch and every student of every branch.
The history and its many branches belong to all of us.
Again, I hope this apology to the Yuen family gets the publicity it deserves and more people get exposed to more teachers and branches of the art.
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actually, Lee Shing was also taught by Ng Chun So for a period and he has a Dai Lim Tao - different to that but he does have one nontheless.Leung Jan's taming tiger form
the information I am giving is not secret by any means. you just have to go beyond quoting kwok fu and yip chun. as you can see most of my info comes from people who do not have a bias.
i dont think that its Kulo village stuff, but could be wrong.
Spencer?
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C'mon you are talking like you are the only one that goes to china guangzhou. Its 3 hours away from me, and I have met yuen, yiu, ip students and are friends through email with them. And our lineage goes yearly to exchange with them. I am going to see Master Yuen Jo Tong and Master Zhou this year. Will ask them whats their view and why did Leung Niu says Yuen and Ip, were good friends. Even the newspaper report says so.
Why dont you show the news report you claim like I did to prove your point?
Still waiting for the Ip Chun lying report and the Yuen yelling. The reporters were to keen to say they nearly came to blows, say Checkley Sim offered tea multiple times and yet forget to mention Ip Chun was yelled at about his house. They did record what Yuen Jo Tong yelled about though.
You know the first ip man movie, there was a scene where the young boy had his pants pulled down because the older brother was trying to teach him, what it meant by, telling the truth or so called facts, over knowing what to say, because of loss of face
As chinese I understand what that means, some things are better not said. Whatever you think its true, I have returned you with facts, not from my mouth, or my text written just by me, but from referenced from individual sources.
However at no point did I run down or sprout any stories about the other Sifus to put them down like you have about Ip Man lineage. If its really what you say it is, then whoever is sprouting this to you, has alot of anger, negativity and also no understanding of chinese culture or mo dak. I have heard many stories of this and that over the years, and there's a reason why I would never think of posting in online. Because its disrespectful.
You admit you cannot verify alot of your stories, and you havent, so you should know when to stop being disrespectful to 咏春泰斗 叶问
I am showing you historical recorded data from the goverment. You accuse everyone of some conspiracy, all except your source.
I show you Kulo Goverment, Fatshan Museum, besides of course Ip Man Tong. Ip Man Tong was created by the chinese goverment.
Reference? Chan Wah Shun's Master Tam video, and also Master Fung was mentioned by me. Text, people, books, etc.... show me on an external site, not your own words. I have shown lots, from official resources from china.
I have the book, it doesnt say nothing about Ip Man 3 forms or Yuen Kay San. What you talking about Chan Wah Shun anyway, it has no reference to Master Yuen.
This is what you said...
-YKS was the one who gave instruction to YM for a while when the Yip family was burned down due to the Yip family's drug smuggling connections, again suggesting superiority in WC skill and knowledge
Yet the Yiu Family records and Kwok Fu remember otherwise.
-the book is call "Wing Chun Kuen" by Hon Quang Gow a student of Chan Wah Shun's great grandson, there is many in the series. You will see that they have more than 3 forms and 108 movements. Everyone today likes to coincide with YKS' 3 forms and reduce--it is much simpler.
Why? Their teachers had no skill? This is totally untrue. They still have 3 forms, but they have their hong kuen. And I have videos of their other forms, some are clearly created by themselves, called Chan Wah Shun Form. We already know who broke the forms down. What Yuen Kay San 3 forms? They all have 3 forms.
-lets forget about the pak sau chung choi debate. no one can prove anything, we can just speculate.
Sorry as far as I see, you are really speculating. When you say no one, I really dont see that I cant. As I have....
-im saying that yip man learned sticky hands from yuen kay san for a short period of time. YM had only really mastered the chung choi before this. reportedley yuen kay san was also reluctant to teach yip man because he was learning a different style of wing chun. YKS is an 'old school' type of guy who is in the tradition of keeping skills and knowledge within the inner circle of his own KF family.
[B]Leung Niu from Yuen Kay San says otherwise as I presented in the video. Unless you are more senior than him, you are really just spinning another story. [/U]
-you can state the history you have learned, i can state the history i have learned. in the end neither of us have any evidence to prove any claim, but just like Rene's example with the incident in the 70s he trusts his sources and I trust mine.
You say it like I have showed no references from china. You....er....still nil.
-if people want evidence of things then look at the historical documents about yuen kay san and sum nung's accomplishments (fight records and writings about them that were made at the time they were alive). go to the KF hall of fame museum in Fatsan and check it out for yourself. Ask yourself why yiu choi and yip man are not there despite being part of the "3 heroes of wing chun"
You mean this? From Foshan
http://www.foshanmuseum.com/wbzy/xsl...sp?xsyj_ID=261
http://www.foshanmuseum.com/mrmj/mrm...sub.asp?id=117
tells you heaps about Ip man, and Leung Jan
Last edited by Shadow_warrior8; 08-26-2010 at 04:35 AM.
讲你不听,听你不明,明你不做,做你又做错,错你又不认,认你又不改,改你又不服,不服你又不讲；那你要我 怎么办？
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Rene, this is no fault of the Ip Family or hongkong. Was it the west who propelled the momentum? Whose to blame?
China was closed and Bruce Lee went to hollywood to make movies became big
Ip man was in hongkong and it was a british colony.
Any wingchun practitioners in asia would have known there was more than 1 wingchun lineage, malaysia, vietnam, singapore, indonesia, china etc... There was no deception by anyone. Didnt many on this forum learnt from chinese people who left for the west or left china? If more didnt leave, no one is to blame.
How can it be a disservice? It was not as if there was a Ip Man Wing Chun God or Ip Man Goverment that controlled who gets to go to the west to teach Wingchun and was biased. This is fate and destiny.
The various lineages made their choices, stay or leave. And I know also that Cho Family members left for Canada Vancouver and also in Mexico. As there are Yuen members, in many western countries. Master Kwok is in Hongkong.
My grandparents risk their lifes to leave china, and many others left for US to build railroads, New Zealand to do mining, Singapore, Malaysia, Indonesia etc....
The fact that the mainland china lineages didnt get the recognition is not fault of anyone, everyone gets their fair chance. Like now, the doors are open, we can now compare 50 years later, moving from stories, what do the descendents demonstrate? And claims on ancestors skills now have a chance to show.... is it really superior? Was it like what the stories say? Or those who claim my grand daddy could beat yours, now can your grandson beat yours? Its all in the present now. And the present generations get to prove their stories in their skills.
If we didnt have Ip Man and Bruce lee to push the momentum forward, do we think we would even have this wingchun forum as exclusive forum by itself.
Nevertheless, the diversity is great and I have learnt alot from other lineages. There is great depth and culture in Mainland still.
Its just I dislike people who claim they know the chinese arts, but dont even know the basic principle- Respect the teacher and the way of wing chun.
This apology was not just to the Yuen Family also the Yiu and this is in line with the chinese ways of respecting the ancestors and humility.
Last edited by Shadow_warrior8; 08-26-2010 at 05:26 AM.
讲你不听,听你不明,明你不做,做你又做错,错你又不认,认你又不改,改你又不服,不服你又不讲；那你要我 怎么办？
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I also quoted china goverment and foshan museum, you need to open your eyes and see the chinese text. Do you read chinese text?Actually YKS died when SN was in his early 30s. Also, Sum Nung gained a good reputation early on and so he began teaching at a young age and so most of his students were older than him.
i get a lot of my information from people with roots in China. I dont go to Hawaii and Taiwan to learn about WC.
Some of the people I have spoken to over the years include
- The widow of Sum Nung's student, Cheung, who is also close to the Leung Sheung family
- Sum Nung's indoor student Kevin Chan (not the guy who teaches in SF)
- Historian Chow (forgot his given name at the moment)
- Master of Yao Gung Moon in LA
- Hung Ga Master in NY who told me everyone in Fatsan knows that no one comes close to the skills of Sum Nung and YKS(also forgot his name but its the same person who taught Robert Chu)
- Ng Jung from Hong Kong, who is a grandstudent of Wong Wah Bo. He demonstrated to me and Kevin Chan Wong Wah Bo's 12 forms and 108 movements for the 6.5 staff
Also I forgot until now, but there is a branch of WC called Pao Fa Lien, which has roots with Fung Siu Chung too. I believe that they have many open handed forms. I think a total of 12. Here is something I found on youtube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JiBMTLGfC3E
Anyways, here is another book I have by Hon Quon Guo. He is in Leung Jan's lineage.
Explanation of Leung Jan's 12 forms and 108 movements
Leung Jan's double sword and fork
Leung Jan's plum flower spear
Leung Jan's taming tiger form
the information I am giving is not secret by any means. you just have to go beyond quoting kwok fu and yip chun. as you can see most of my info comes from people who do not have a bias.
I didnt quote Ip Chun, I quoted Ip Ching. And many others....
I go direct to china, and talk to current students who talk to their master daily. We are friends and still emailing from time to time. They are still in china have always been.
I have this book showing Chan Wah Shun Lineage.
Fok Fu is Chan Wah Shun lineage, Shunde Weng Chun
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ltGyg5GA1h8
This pictures are taken in Foshan Jing Wu School
Fat Jeung and Flower Fist are Chan Wah Shun lineage.
Nice pictures. I respect your sharing.
Pao Fa Lin doesnt trace back to Fung Siu Ching
http://www.hudong.com/wiki/%E5%88%A8...98%A5%E6%8B%B3
刨花蓮詠春一脈來源：
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刨花蓮詠春一脈來源：
少林寺被清廷所毁，寺僧便四散逃走，有散于北方其他地方，亦有南下广东，福建等地，一名绰号“ 大东风”之少 林和尚（真姓名及法号已没有提起，因避清廷耳目之故，而“大东风”的意思，在当时中国民间有俗 语所谓“唔好 东风搅坏天”，借用其意即要造反）逃到广东，遇到两名兄弟并被收容，兄叫谢国梁，弟叫谢国樟， 袓籍西樵，单 灶谢，一为文官，一为武官，两人虽为清廷效力，但皆为清官，而且身为汉人，亦对满洲人欺压汉人 而心感不愤。 经过一段颇长日子的相处，“大东风”见两人品德端正，为官清廉，对自己礼待有加，且心系汉族， 并非为虎作伥 之人，就传两兄弟武功，并且透露，懂此门武功者，皆为反清义士，但此拳本无名，乃少林一脉，但 少林功夫门路 繁多，于散出少林后，便各自成一派，亦具派别名称。缘于本派功夫，既以反清复明为己任，当然会 联络及组织各 地之反凊组织（即初期之洪门等三合会），而本派暗语是“永言矢志，毋忘汉族，还我河山，大地回 春”，为便以 传于后世，遂将第一句“永言”合成一“咏”字，加上第四句最尾“春”字，以命名此一拳派，是为 “咏春”。何 解第一句用首两字，而第四句只用最尾一字？因为“永言”合成的“咏”字，是一动词，创拳者们既 身为明朝遗臣 或子民，能够驱逐鞑子，还我河山，是为毕生最重要的事，所以“咏”的意思，就是告诫所有的人， 要经常在心中 吟咏那四句的暗语，勉励自己，不可或忘。
关于上述四句暗语，不单说武术界的老前辈，只要是年近六十岁，武林阅历丰富，及对初期洪门三合 会组成之历史 及目的有所认识者，都会听得出这四句暗语的含意。
“大东风”是道光年间人，咏春拳亦由此而南传广东，而谢氏昆仲是咸丰年间人，当两兄弟学成武功后 ，大东风便 离开他们，返回北方，临行前叮嘱谢氏昆仲，创此拳乃为反清复明，为保存隐密性，只能“传而不教 ”。
几十年后，谢氏昆仲告老还乡，收了两名干儿子，一名梁洪韬，亦为西樵人，后来曾中得武举人，擅 使关刀。另一 名刘达生，同治年间人，自九岁开始随两干爹习拳，因其名中“达”字，以草书写来，很像“莲”字 ，故街坊叔伯 皆笑称其“莲仔”，久而久之，他亦习惯了这称谓。又因其在佛山曾做“刨花”行业，那是一种树木 ，将其刨成刨 花，放在水中煮滚，会分泌出浆液，用作搽腊头发，以固定发式，即属现代之化妆品行业，“刨花莲 ”的绰号，乃 由此而来。
刨花莲后来在佛山唐裕昌宫粉堂作掌柜，
刨花莲咏春拳
一生只收有数名弟子，有李善初，罗甜，陆义（先随张保学咏春十二散式，后再随刨花莲学齐咏春门 之套路及技法 ），朱忠，李炳霖，郭佳(现仍在佛山)。
朱忠，光绪年间人，十一岁时从街坊处得知刨花莲功夫了得，于是慕名前往，却是被拒，返家后闷闷 不乐，其父问 及，于是说出原委，其父带他一同前往，看谁个教头这般大牌，一见面，原来是相识数十年之朋友， 却从未听刨花 莲说过会功夫，但因其两人既谂熟，才答应收朱忠为徒，其时刨花莲已七十多岁，朱忠将其迎回家中 教授，除侍奉 起居饮食外，每月束修为三十元白银。
在解放前，朱忠与家人移居香港，住于深水及开设跌打医馆，凡数十年，四年多前，才享高寿而终， 年一百零五岁 。朱忠在港数十年间，除数名子女外，先后教有很多弟子，其中弟子莫沛安，早年随朱颂民习传自冯 少青的永春拳 ，因他长年做武林记者，跟很多武林前辈熟络，故亦旁及其它一些拳派，如自然门等。在六○年代， 因他经常到旺 角吉祥茶楼午膳，从邻台一些老佛山口中，得悉有一位咏春门的老师傅，住于深水？，名叫朱忠，其 拳法很有古朴 味道，大不相同于一般所见之咏春，莫沛安几经查探，终于寻得朱忠老师傅，多番恳求下，被朱忠收 为弟子，其后 莫沛安想在“新武侠”杂志介绍本门咏春，于是请示其师朱忠，朱忠是尊师重道之人，因他是学“刨 花莲”的，所 以就叫莫沛安写“刨花莲咏春”，以别于其它各支水，而本门咏春亦由那时开始转叫“刨花莲咏春” 。朱荣枝师傅 虽已八十岁，但步履动作之灵活敏捷，犹如小孩般。
综观历史及拳理、功法等，与由红船传出的各支咏春差别极大。而现在是“大东风”南传二百多年间 之第五传。由 于此门咏春一向很保守，从不公开，只有一次，约八十几九十年前，佛山精武体育会举行盛大武术表 演，发帖邀请 “刨花莲”出席表演拳术，由朱忠师公代为出场表演了一套“寻桥”，与会中者还有当时武技超群，德 高望重的前 辈梁世苏。由于已不需要反清复明，所以后来莫沛安乃作半公开式教授，及现亦于香港南北国术协会 开班。
Last edited by Shadow_warrior8; 08-26-2010 at 05:19 AM.
讲你不听,听你不明,明你不做,做你又做错,错你又不认,认你又不改,改你又不服,不服你又不讲；那你要我 怎么办？
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摘要：电影《叶问前传》中，姚才、阮奇山这两位叶问师兄弟成了“反面陪衬”，引起广佛两地阮氏、姚氏后 人弟子的不满，并发言声讨。昨日，在武林人士的协调下，“咏春三雄”叶问、姚才、阮奇山的后人弟子首次坐到 圆桌前调解。
(南方都市报www.nddaily.com 南都网)调解会现场
南都讯 电影《叶问前传》中，姚才、阮奇山这两位叶问师兄弟成了“反面陪衬”，引起广佛两地阮氏、姚氏后人弟子的不 满，并发言声讨。昨日，在武林人士的协调下，“咏春三雄”叶问、姚才、阮奇山的后人弟子首次坐到圆桌前调解 。在剧组代表冼国林承认虚拟剧情对“二雄”造成伤害，并五次口头道歉后，双方初步达成共识，将在近期发布正 式文字道歉声明。
阮姚两家欲司法解决
昨日，出品人冼国林作为剧组代表从香港赶到广州道歉，叶问儿子叶准同行。“地点是由阮、姚后人确定的， 既是请罪，当然是上门道歉方显诚意。”冼国林说。
姚、阮两家7月6日首次发表的抗议声明，得到冼国林在媒体上的间接回应，昨天在调解会上，两家再次发表 声明，把口头上的争执上升到司法层面。
阮奇山嫡孙阮祖棠介绍，《叶问前传》未经姚、阮两家授权委托，盗用阮奇山、姚才姓名权用于商业行为，并 且在没有事实依据的情况下，对阮奇山和姚才进行贬损性侮辱性描述，丑化其外在形象，构成名誉损害。在电影播 出后，制片方授权出版社出版《叶问前传》漫画、小说，同样的情况再次出现。鉴于上述三种文化产品仍在各地上 映、销售、发行、扩散，侵权行为仍在继续，“不想打口水仗了，司法解决或会更好。”阮祖棠说。
出品人五次口头道歉
“这个事件是个误解，希望此事能在武林中解决。”冼国林说。
冼国林在会上不断重复解释，《叶问前传》中出现的叶天赐是一个虚拟的人物，姚才、阮奇山两位宗师被打败 也是虚构的。冼国林承认自己忽略了其后人、弟子的感受，并口头道歉，希望两家后人弟子能接受。
“这是我的第五次道歉！”冼国林说。虽然冼国林一上来就摆出低姿态，向“二雄”后人道歉，但协调过程中 仍不时受到姚、阮两家后人的指责，以至于他在现场一共口头道歉五次，最终达成初步共识，即姚、阮两家在接受 冼国林的口头道歉后，冼国林仍然需要再拟一份书面道歉声明公布于媒体，以示诚意。
在表示会书面道歉后，冼国林面对媒体询问是否会赔钱时，明确表示不会在金钱上进行赔偿。此外，姚阮二家 还表示，如再次看到冼国林无诚意道歉，或会自己拍一部姚才、阮奇山的电影，复制同样的场景来扬 先师的雄风。
事件回放(南方都市报www.nddaily.com 南都网)
《叶问前传》一个不到一分钟的场景，场景中同有“咏春三雄”之称的姚才和阮奇山在与东洋人冲突后被打倒 ，命悬一线时，叶问赶到，持“六点半棍”以一敌众，把东洋人打倒。姚阮后人认为，电影为了撑叶问而贬损阮奇 山和姚才的形象。7月6日找到媒体，发首份声明，质疑影片方的用意。
叶准异常沉默
在姚阮两家质疑制片方的过程中，叶准几乎一言不发，喝着热茶，抽着烟。其间，由于双方争论火药味较浓， 不时有人口快，说出一句对其父叶问的冷语评价，叶准依然一言不发。当争吵过激时，他仅通过不断打火点烟的火 机声让人注意到他的存在。记者注意到，年过八旬的叶准由于身体不佳，在端茶喝水或点烟的过程中手都剧烈颤抖 。
武林“讲数”
出场：首次聚首均便装出场
武林调解，自是掌门协商，弟子静候。昨日的调解宴，东道主阮(生活在广州，开武馆)、姚(生活在佛山， 开武馆)两家后人弟子，在广州坐镇家门口，等待道歉方百里外赶来。
调解宴开始时间是中午12：30分，但三方均是提前到来，而且是前后脚，服装均是便装，丝毫看不出江湖 气息。姚忠强黄色唐装，阮祖棠白衬衫，叶准和冼国林均是T恤。一围圆台，姚才孙子姚忠强等三兄弟(姚永强， 姚汉强，姚忠强)先到，坐定。随后是阮奇山孙子阮祖棠到来，握手招呼后坐定。作为东道主，姚阮二家各带两名 弟子随行。
最后到来的是冼国林、叶准及作为协调人的佛山精武会成员，叶准居前。在见到姚、阮后人后，叶准主动先伸 出手以示友好，姚、阮也忙回礼握手，这是咏春三雄后人在世交几十年间首次同聚一堂，握手交谈。“叶准先生， 我一向敬重叶问老先生，没想到见面竟是这种场合，真是一个苦结。”阮祖棠说。(南方都市报www.nddaily.com 南都网)
随后，双方坐定，一围10人，均为各派话事人。
中场：六名外籍壮汉引混乱
双方坐定，寒暄数言，协商氛围一片友好。突然，本是紧闭的包间大门被推开，一排六名外籍壮汉斯文走入， 进入后在门口的墙边一字排开站定，却一言不发。“三雄”后人眼看壮汉入内，表情各异：叶氏脸色平静，姚氏一 脸茫然，唯阮氏最动情。但见阮祖棠脸色突变，弹簧般跳起，拍桌大喝：“这是什么意思？什么态度？搞黑社会示 威吗？”听到师傅叫喊声，阮家的两个弟子随即冲入包间，一时会场火药味弥漫，有点混乱。
冼国林马上站起身来解释，说这群朋友听说他从香港来广州，机会难得，就约着一起来。“这是谈判，不是随 便的见面会，可以约其他朋友过来。如果可以的话，我在广州可以约的朋友何只六个，上百个也可以。”阮祖棠大 声道。认定对方无谈判诚意，阮祖棠正欲离席走人，姚忠强出声劝止，“不行，第一次协商不能就这么不欢而散。 ”强劝数言，阮祖棠终于答应继续谈，但要求六名壮汉即刻离开，“马上给我出去，不出去，我打你出去！”阮祖棠怒斥。
眼见谈判即将破裂，冼国林马上示意随行人员跟六名壮汉解释，并将他们带出包厢。
终场：倒茶赔罪以果汁结束
在协商过程中，阮祖棠多次对冼国林的道歉态度表示怀疑，双方来回多次口角，由于言语过激，冼国林的发言 多次被阮祖棠打断。(南方都市报www.nddaily.com 南都网)
“以前多次协商都是通过代理人与阮、姚两家电话、短信沟通，我这次亲自过来就是为了表示诚意，希望阮师 兄、姚师兄能接受我的道歉。”冼国林说。在重复地解释和口头道歉后，冼国林先端着茶杯走向阮祖棠，不料遭阮 拒绝，冼只好回到座位，继续解释。之后，再次端起茶杯走向姚氏三兄弟，看冼国林多次端茶起立，姚氏三兄弟接 受了他的端茶道歉。
从12点半到下午两点，一围人几乎没吃饭，眼着大家都累了，姚氏兄弟接受了冼国林道歉后举起杯，希望大 家能端茶促同心，尽早协商出解决方案。利用这个时机，冼再次端茶向阮祖棠赔礼道歉，阮终于接受，却不肯喝茶 ，直呼自己想喝饮料，一场倒茶赔罪宴以一杯果汁结束，颇让人惊讶。
采写：南都记者 陈怡
图片为录像截图 (南方都市报www.nddaily.com
Its is clear here, another article, that Yuen Jo Tong never yelled about house, he did about the 6 westerners, it is not reported and Ip Chun said nothing at all till they almost came to blows, he never said anything about Leung Bik. This report is very consistent with the other 2 I posted.
And seriously, Master Yuen would yell at someone who is in his 80s? If we say both Master Yuen and Master Ip were brothers, then Ip Chun is still a senior in age and lineage. Leung Niu was sitting next to GM Ip Chun. From what I read, he was saying its a shame that its the first time he meet Ip Chun under this kind of circumstances, and he would say so when he shakes his hand. Very classy man Master Yuen.
Your statements actually dishonour the family of Yuen saying they would try to get fame by claiming their ancestors was a hero together with Yiu Choi and Ip Man(whats the problem he was...), and that he would yell at a senior, older man in the lineage.
Fatshan Wingchun 3 heros, as told by Yiu Choi descendents, Yuen Kay San grandson, Yuen Kay San student Leung Niu. This is not a story told much in hongkong, it is something that in China is known. Something is very wrong with anyone claiming the Yuen or Yiu descendants are accepting it for fame or distorting the historical facts of their ancestors. Stabbing your own family, something is very wrong here.
They called a press conference just to talk about this that all 3 were known as brothers, on great terms and heros of fatshan and the Ip Elder went all the way to Guangzhou just to talk to them- To honour their ancestors.
http://news.gd.sina.com.cn/news/2010/07/15/947463.html
I am starting to think all these lies are just because there are some who are jealous of the Ip Man lineage, his status, the huge family, bruce lee, ip man tong, the 3 movies and fourth coming up.
C'mon, then do something about it. Dont tell lies and stories to bring Ip Man down. Everyone gets a fair chance. I would love to see a historical movie on Master Yuen or Master Yiu or Master Sum Nung or any wingchun master in history who had great skills. They were great people historically too.
If you want vindication, do a movie, do a documentary, do a museum, honour the ancestors. This is much better way to honour them than to tell stories and put other wingchun brothers down.
Last edited by Shadow_warrior8; 08-26-2010 at 06:51 AM.
讲你不听,听你不明,明你不做,做你又做错,错你又不认,认你又不改,改你又不服,不服你又不讲；那你要我 怎么办？
Registered User
Its not Kulo stuff. All the forms are Shunde Weng Chun via Chan Yiu Meng/Chan Wah Shun
讲你不听,听你不明,明你不做,做你又做错,错你又不认,认你又不改,改你又不服,不服你又不讲；那你要我 怎么办？
Registered User
sorry, i meant that i dont think Less Shing's DLT comes from his Gulao village learning (which was prior to learning from Ng Chun So i am led to believe)
again lee Shing also learnt from Jui Chow alongside Jui Wan and Pan Nam, so it COULD be Shunde Weng Chun i guess...
ask your sifu shadow warrior - he also studied some with Lee Shing
Registered User
I didnt say anything along those lines
Just pointing out those pictures and forms were of Shunde Weng Chun, not maybe
Yes he did study with Lee Shing. Cheers...
Last edited by Shadow_warrior8; 08-26-2010 at 05:36 AM.
讲你不听,听你不明,明你不做,做你又做错,错你又不认,认你又不改,改你又不服,不服你又不讲；那你要我 怎么办？
Registered User
there is no conspiracy. i never suggested this. you are making strawmen like a lawyer. people always want to change history when its good for them.
you do not read posts. i gave some of my sources a few posts ago. these are unbiased third party people and texts. you reference ip chun, ip ching and kwok fu. why dont i just reference yuen jo tong and sum dek!
we can go back and forth about whether the "3 heroes of wing chun" saying existed at the time of YKS or not all day long. i say this, you say that.
like i said, go to fatsan, the city kept a census every year, but not just of who lived where or the # of kids they have, they also recorded the famous or significant people and their accomplishments. only YKS and Sum Nung are listed as Wing Chun masters at the time. Why did they not record the other 2 of the "3 heroes of Wing Chun"?
the yip man museum is not government run. of course there is government involvement. its communist china, big government, big brother. you open a lemonade stand on the street and the government will be involved. its different than the records that were kept at the time these men were alive.
your trying to nitpick and derail the discussion. whether pao fa lien is related to fung siu ching or not is not of importance. the point is showing that lineages of WC that have more than SLT, CK, and BJ. i think one of the ancestors learned some style from the fung siu ching lineage first, before learning what we now call pao fa lien. like i said, that does not matter. that is not my point
the articles on the meeting are not records of the exact dialogue, they are not the meeting minutes. many things happened that were not reported. i got my information from people that were at the meeting. By the way, why do you mention Leung Bik. I never said anything about Leung Bik and the apology meeting.
Last edited by Pacman; 08-26-2010 at 09:30 PM.
Registered User
Sorry, yes - the pictures were from Shunde wck. the point i was making was that the dlt DOES exist outside of shunde wck potentially. Kulo village have a san sik by that name i think i remember Robert Chu mentioning one time? but my point was that i dont think the Lee Shing DLT comes from the pin sun system
ive also shot you a pm...
Junior Member
Having seen Lee Shing's Dai Lim Tao a few times in the UK and on youtube, I would say 100% it is Pin San WCK from the Fung Family. There is no doubt about it to me. All other speculation about it being from Shun De WCK is just that.
Pin San is organized in many different ways - loose or informal sets. Some branches have no sets at all, others have a few sets. In Lee Shing system, the DLT is one set comprised of the Pin San points and many even share the same names as other branches of Gu Lao/Ku Lo.
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