Profound respect for Si Kwok Lam and Yip Chun, re: Yuen Kay San

[t_niehoff]

Terence, there is a different cultural and historical context as I'm sure you know. Not that it means we need to continue that cultural practice.

Yes, I know -- and that's one of the things that needs to go. That sort of relationship isn't healthy and only holds people and arts back.

I'm pretty sure that for a majority (me included) they have/had a "transactional" relationship with our teachers. But over time the relationship could change to a much closer one. I think the term "master" is too loaded with the master/servant theme.

This is true in all aspects of our lives. For example, many of us only have a "transactional relationship" with our co-workers but over time can develop a closer relationship.

I wouldn't seek a father figure in my teacher. I don't need one. But I would look for mutual respect in our relationship. I've heard of a lot of exploitative relationships btwn teacher and student.

Quite frankly, IME most people get what they want. There are many people who want to be exploited (why I said it is an unhealthy relationship).

As I see it, a WCK instructor should be like a personal trainer or a golf or tennis pro. They are there to service you, not you there to service them.

[chusauli]

I have to totally disagree with you on this one, because if this WAS the case, anyone who 'feels' like they have learnt all the forms and can perform them by heart is a Master? I don't think so

That makes me a Master too

I think you don't understand the term "Unconscious Competence" - it implies mastery in the moment - to be able to do what you know and apply it according to circumstances. I said nothing about forms and performance, that is from you. So your post shows you are once again not comprehending what I am saying. I certainly did not have the shallow definition you are referring to.

Spencer, are you the "master" that you refer to, or what I am referring to?

I believe a Master to be, not only a figurehead of a school, but someone who actually takes responsibility for his students to the point that he becomes a 'father figure' too, a mentor. From my little knowledge of past Chinese Martial Arts history, students were housed and fed by their Masters and even put to work in a trade that was suitable. This also is very similar to my own experience.

A Master also implies that there are servants, and I can totally relate to that as that was how I felt sometimes while serving under mine

Master does not imply servants and master, but skilled craftsman (remember the term "Sifu" is about a "Craftsman", not an owner of slaves) teaching developing craftsmen as in the old guilds of China and Europe, but the father figure and mentor can also apply. As figurehead of the system, you should know all aspects of the system in application, and have taught you curriculum to other masters within your system. But too much of TCMA has a problem of corruption, abuse, putting up on pedestals, blind loyalty, and just plain stupid, rigid understanding and subservience.

[LoneTiger108]

I think you don't understand the term "Unconscious Competence" - it implies mastery in the moment - to be able to do what you know and apply it according to circumstances. I said nothing about forms and performance, that is from you. So your post shows you are once again not comprehending what I am saying. I certainly did not have the shallow definition you are referring to.

Spencer, are you the "master" that you refer to, or what I am referring to?

First of all, I don't think the term 'learning by heart' is shallow, but I do see much clearer with your extended explanation so thanks for sharing more. Unconcious Competence to me is the same as learning something by heart, as this also implies that you can operate at will, witout thinking and in any circumstance. Mastery in the moment as you put it, which I think sums it up much better.

So in answer, I am the master both of us are talking about as I too think you misunderstood me (again!) as I wasn't just referring to simply being comfirtable with images of forms.

Master does not imply servants and master, but skilled craftsman (remember the term "Sifu" is about a "Craftsman", not an owner of slaves) teaching developing craftsmen as in the old guilds of China and Europe, but the father figure and mentor can also apply. As figurehead of the system, you should know all aspects of the system in application, and have taught you curriculum to other masters within your system. But too much of TCMA has a problem of corruption, abuse, putting up on pedestals, blind loyalty, and just plain stupid, rigid understanding and subservience.

The term Sifu, fme, should never be considered the same as Master, or Sijo. The Sijo is the figurehead, the Sifu actually teaches the physical skill (like a coach) and yes, can become a father figure, but it's the Sijo that holds all the keys and pays all the cooks! He IS the man! A Founder, if you like.

I am a Sifu, but not a Sijo. I say this even though I have created my own brand with The Yum Yeurng Academy, and so the Sijo title could be used. Bottom line, I didn't 'invent' anything to be a Sijo, I just inherited a curriculum with my Sihing and coach it as best I can.

You can't just mess with words that are already written.

[LoneTiger108]

[QUOTE=t_niehoff;1041040]Where did I say that? You are being dishonest.

I said,

"For me and I think most people, the term"master" implies that one is very highly skilled, and in terms of a fighting art, that means being, or having been, a very highly skilled fighter. I don't think anyone would expect a "master" to have low levels of fighting skill, and not be able to handle themselves *using their method* (to do what they teach) readily. Being a "master" in a fighting art isn't about what you *know* (your "intellectual knowledge") but about what you can do (perform)."

I wasn't referring to that T, I was referring to you talking of a 'Benny' who taught what people wanted to learn. I just presumed that this 'Benny' cat was your idea of a Master?! Sorry if you misunderstood, but understand one thing...

I am definitely NOT dishonest.

In any event, do you also make your golf pro a father figure? If you take ice skating lessons, does your instructor also become a surrogate father for you? If not, then why your martial arts instructor?

In response to that, if I was to respect their guidance in the court/rink/gwoon AND within my life too, then yes I would see my 'Pro' as a father figure. Like a mentor really, keeping me on the right path especially in my youth.

I think in Martial Arts it is clearer as so many things in kung fu are taught as 'life-lessons' too. Especially in Wing Chun!

[Pacman]

I never claimed my views were original (is there
anything new under the sun?)

you said "<blah blah blah>...follow so far?". why would you say "follow so far?" if i had just told you the same thing. you sound like you are saying something new. hard for asberger sufferers, i know.

again you sound like a total moron. you used to just blab on about how much another person knows, but now you are predicting the future--telling me what will happen if my teacher fights an MMA fighter?

ive seen my teacher beat lots of people, using what he knows, effortlessly over the years. from his younger days to his older. people more skilled than a low level MMA guy--people with your beloved competitive titles.

have you seen any of your teachers do this in front of your eyes? have you ever put on the gloves and sparred your teachers? i have.