Profound respect for Si Kwok Lam and Yip Chun, re: Yuen Kay San

[chusauli]

well being a legend or not a legend is subjective.

but just ask yourself when ip man tong was built (2002). there are no stories of ip man in fatsan, except for the ones created by the movie in which it is acknowledged as fiction

actually, ip man had went to japan to study for a while, so he knew a little japanese. it was because of this that he was hired by the japanese invaders to translate for them.

so ip man was more like the cop in the first movie than the ip man in the first movie.

the richest man in fatsan who lazily trains KF? That sounds more like yuen kay san. yuen's father owned the entire firework industry in fatsan. he never worked a day in his life. all he did was practice KF. his father paid huge sums of gold and silver to fung siu ching for training

ip man's dad was an opium boat captain.




http://www.wingchunpedia.org/pmwiki/...CP.YuenKayShan

Yuen Kay accepted a very limited number of students and only had one disciple, Sum Num. Yip Man (The man that brought Wing Chun to Hong Kong in 1949 and first taught the system to the public) and his family, were neighbors of the Yuen’s. Yip Man’s father was a fellow merchant of Yuen Chong Ming. Yip Man’s grandfather had been an opium boat captain and some locals took exception to him gaining wealth in that fashion so burnt down the Yip estate. Yuen’s father took the Yip clan in and housed them in his estate for a time. During this time Yuen Chong Ming asked Yuen to teach young Yip Man some Chi Sau as Young Yip had not learnt this from his quasi teacher, Ng Chung So. Yuen wasn’t happy doing this as Yip was Ng’s student and did different Wing Chun. However, at His father’s urging, Yuen did teach Yip a little chi sau. Yip was asked not to show this to his elder gwoon brothers but later did so, defeating them. Yuen Kay also taught his Friend Wong Jing, who would later pass his art down to his son Mai Gai Wong.

Hence why the Yip Man And Yuen Kay Shan systems both teach the Luk Sao/Poon Sao exercise, and other branches of WCK probably adopted the exercise.

[reneritchie]

>Kwok fu clearly said Yuen Kay San would come to Ip Man's house and garden when they were training. I would not say anymore of what he said here. But its in his video interview.

I didn't watch the video interview, but back in the 1970s there were some statements made that greatly misrepresented what went on during that training. They basically said Yip Man taught Yuen Kay-San Chi Sao.

Yuen Jo-Tong sent a letter to New Martial Hero, along with similar documents and statements, to dispel those rumors. Sum Nung, who was the one training Chi Sao with Yip Man and Yip Man's early students, offered to take Mok Poi-On and any other reporters who wanted to accompany him to go visit Kwok Fu, so they could hear the proper story in Kwok Fu's own words.

The stories abruptly ended at that point.

Suffice it to say, the real version didn't receive a lot of coverage in the west either

[Pacman]

you have to take into evidence sources that are not biased. people from YM lineage are of course going to talk up YM. Same goes for YKS. So you have to take into account unbiased sources like those documents, what is in the fatsan KF museum etc.

where are the records of YM fights? YKS was documented to have beaten the "King of the Staff" from Shaanxi and to have beaten Wong Fei Hong and others.

earlier we were talking about lies. if YM was humble then thats great, the problem is that people in his lineage distort the history. like I said before, the "three heroes of wing chun" is in itself a modern thing and a joke. yuen kay san's grandson goes along with it for political reasons. it would be equivalent to years from now that AC Green and Magic Johnson were at the same skill level and accomplishment level.

why would yip chun travel to china three times to beg sum nung to teach him when his own father was alive?!

the truth is a lot of people you hear about learned a little WC from sum nung over the years. thankfully sum nung was fearful of them stealing his WC and not giving his KF family credit, telling people it is all their own so he taught them very little and only showed them his WC at a superficial level or left everything incomplete at first.

this is what happened with mickey wong and leung ting and others, and he was right. they never gave credit to sum nung for influencing their WC at any level. leung ting even talked down to sum nung in his book.

this is why sum nung denied yip chun as a student. he was fearful of all the credit being given to yip man and he was probably right that would have happened.

Since I have a part in the website years back and realise the source and who was writing it up. I reserve my comments to say, some of those "truths" need be updated

There are clear videos and interviews of Kwok fu and lun gai as fighters and "invincible" in fatshan, they have honoured Ip Man for years there.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-OH1PR7uDQ

Kwok fu clearly said Yuen Kay San would come to Ip Man's house and garden when they were training. I would not say anymore of what he said here. But its in his video interview.
Kwok fu's son is pretty famous too in Fatshan.

A good e.g on that site, Yiu Choi taught Ip Man, Yiu family have publicly said it was not so.

[Pacman]

this is true. yuen kay san then told sum nung to kick yip man's ass for saying BS. yip man denied any wrong doing, blaming his students for spreading the rumors. sum nung didn't really want to fight yip man, as they were friendly acquaintances, but he had to follow his teacher's request.

so sum nung went to challenge yip man a few times in hong kong. finally yip man accepted in a private match. yip man tried his famous pak sau technique. that failed and sum nung defeated him quickly.

of course when asked about this sum nung would not want yip man to lose face so he would not talk about it publicly.

>Kwok fu clearly said Yuen Kay San would come to Ip Man's house and garden when they were training. I would not say anymore of what he said here. But its in his video interview.

I didn't watch the video interview, but back in the 1970s there were some statements made that greatly misrepresented what went on during that training. They basically said Yip Man taught Yuen Kay-San Chi Sao.

Yuen Jo-Tong sent a letter to New Martial Hero, along with similar documents and statements, to dispel those rumors. Sum Nung, who was the one training Chi Sao with Yip Man and Yip Man's early students, offered to take Mok Poi-On and any other reporters who wanted to accompany him to go visit Kwok Fu, so they could hear the proper story in Kwok Fu's own words.

The stories abruptly ended at that point.

Suffice it to say, the real version didn't receive a lot of coverage in the west either

[t_niehoff]

this is true. yuen kay san then told sum nung to kick yip man's ass for saying BS. yip man denied any wrong doing, blaming his students for spreading the rumors. sum nung didn't really want to fight yip man, as they were friendly acquaintances, but he had to follow his teacher's request.

so sum nung went to challenge yip man a few times in hong kong. finally yip man accepted in a private match. yip man tried his famous pak sau technique. that failed and sum nung defeated him quickly.

of course when asked about this sum nung would not want yip man to lose face so he would not talk about it publicly.

Sum and Yip never had any challenge match.

[bennyvt]

wow people just make any crap up and call it history.
Sounds like a bunch of spitfull little b1tches upset because there isn't a YKS movie.

[reneritchie]

Pacman,

Those stories aren't what I heard from Sum Nung. They sound like mashups and highly dramatized versions. Sum Nung took pains to be polite and respectful of the WCK family.

[Pacman]

Pacman,

Those stories aren't what I heard from Sum Nung. They sound like mashups and highly dramatized versions. Sum Nung took pains to be polite and respectful of the WCK family.

like i said. public vs private. indoor student vs public student.

[reneritchie]

LOL. No.

Unfortunately, that's part of the problem. Stories that get out of control. They infect every branch

[Pacman]

LOL. No.

Unfortunately, that's part of the problem. Stories that get out of control. They infect every branch

well this one is not out of control. i admit i did not talk to sum nung about this one, but with his direct student.

[Shadow_warrior8]

its a matter of students of sum, yuen versus ip

Its all BS to me, all stories after they died and telling all kinds of tales

heard them all, yuen taught ip, sum kicked ip, putting ip man down, chan wah shun blackmailed leung jan was taught wrong footwork, now ip descendants do a movie, the official descendants have come back to merely say this movie does not honour their ancestors- THATS ALL THEY SAID.
Sum definately did not teach ip chun etc...Yuen Kay San did teach young Ip Chun Sil Lim Tao and he did say so.

Show me in writing or in video interview any of the sifus mentioned they said so, or their descendants said so, otherwise its just all nonsense and politics

The 3 men were heros, recognised and great friends. You think they argued about who was better like now by their so called followers?

Why cant people honour their friendships and brotherhood like they did.

And moving forward what does it mean? if Yuen had better skills than Ip? More authentic? Or Ip was better than Yuen? Or Sum Beat Ip? So what?
What do we have to do? Do the clans have to chi sao and fight it out? So now we have rumours of Yuen, Sum beating Ip. Do we have to go to fatshan and now challenge and redeem Ip family name? All this talk, its your wingchun, what you put in is what you get.
Indoor, outdoor, indoor who is lazy can be the worst martial artist in the world, outdoor through his hard work and a open mind can come to a higher level.
Thats why its called kung fu.

[Shadow_warrior8]

Pacman,

Those stories aren't what I heard from Sum Nung. They sound like mashups and highly dramatized versions. Sum Nung took pains to be polite and respectful of the WCK family.

I have spent years looking the way Sum Nung, Yuen Kay San, Yiu Choi were presented in china, they were always known as people of great mo dak.

Pacmen your stories without backup besides official verification offend the Ip family, his students and Ip Chun- who you claimed went to Guangzhou to beg Sum Nung 3 times to accept him even though Ip Man was alive. I will ask Sigung Ip Chun since he can verify this.

If you see what a movie means to Yuen and Yiu Descendants and having to apologise for making ancestors looks bad, spinning these things without proof is offensive to us, as Ip Man descendants.

[Pacman]

renee

i appreciate your input on the YKS issue, and i will drop debate over this story (because its implications are obvious even without it), but just ask yourself about your sources.

you were not close to sum nung as an indoor student, as someone who had the student/teacher relationship which traditionally is like a father/son relationship. you spoke to him as a grandstudent. also when you spoke to him, did he know you were writing a book? that could have influenced him being more reserved and choosing his words carefully.

[Pacman]

if it doesnt matter then thats great. you should have no problem discussing what is reality without getting upset. for the record im not trying to state who is better, im just stating facts as i was told. those facts coincide with some evidence. you can choose to believe or not.

i did not say sum nung taught yip man. yuen kay san taught yip man sticky hands for a few months briefly. yip man did not know sticky hands before this. all he really knew was how to use the chung choi (chain punch). this is probably why yip man's understanding of sticky hands is superficial, just skin deep at best. this is probably why there is so much confusion as to what sticky hands is. some say its just a drill just an excercise most likely because they cannot make it work in a real situation.

recently i read about yuen kay san in wingchunpedia (http://www.wingchunpedia.org/pmwiki/...CP.YuenKayShan)

in the last paragraph it talks about yuen kay san teaching yip man briefly when yip's house was burned down and yips grandfather being an opium boat captain. these details i had not heard of. i had only been told about yuen teaching yip a little sticky hands.

Yip Man’s father was a fellow merchant of Yuen Chong Ming [Yuen Kay San's father]. Yip Man’s grandfather had been an opium boat captain and some locals took exception to him gaining wealth in that fashion so burnt down the Yip estate. Yuen’s father took the Yip clan in and housed them in his estate for a time. During this time Yuen Chong Ming asked Yuen to teach young Yip Man some Chi Sau as Young Yip had not learnt this from his quasi teacher, Ng Chung So. Yuen wasn’t happy doing this as Yip was Ng’s student and did different Wing Chun. However, at His father’s urging, Yuen did teach Yip a little chi sau. Yip was asked not to show this to his elder gwoon brothers but later did so, defeating them.

its a matter of students of sum, yuen versus ip

Its all BS to me, all stories after they died and telling all kinds of tales

heard them all, yuen taught ip, sum kicked ip, putting ip man down, chan wah shun blackmailed leung jan was taught wrong footwork, now ip descendants do a movie, the official descendants have come back to merely say this movie does not honour their ancestors- THATS ALL THEY SAID.
Sum definately did not teach ip chun etc...Yuen Kay San did teach young Ip Chun Sil Lim Tao and he did say so.

Show me in writing or in video interview any of the sifus mentioned they said so, or their descendants said so, otherwise its just all nonsense and politics

The 3 men were heros, recognised and great friends. You think they argued about who was better like now by their so called followers?

Why cant people honour their friendships and brotherhood like they did.

And moving forward what does it mean? if Yuen had better skills than Ip? More authentic? Or Ip was better than Yuen? Or Sum Beat Ip? So what?
What do we have to do? Do the clans have to chi sao and fight it out? So now we have rumours of Yuen, Sum beating Ip. Do we have to go to fatshan and now challenge and redeem Ip family name? All this talk, its your wingchun, what you put in is what you get.
Indoor, outdoor, indoor who is lazy can be the worst martial artist in the world, outdoor through his hard work and a open mind can come to a higher level.
Thats why its called kung fu.

[chusauli]

if it doesnt matter then thats great. you should have no problem discussing what is reality without getting upset. for the record im not trying to state who is better, im just stating facts as i was told. those facts coincide with some evidence. you can choose to believe or not.

i did not say sum nung taught yip man. yuen kay san taught yip man sticky hands for a few months briefly. yip man did not know sticky hands before this. all he really knew was how to use the chung choi (chain punch). this is probably why yip man's understanding of sticky hands is superficial, just skin deep at best. this is probably why there is so much confusion as to what sticky hands is. some say its just a drill just an excercise most likely because they cannot make it work in a real situation.

recently i read about yuen kay san in wingchunpedia (http://www.wingchunpedia.org/pmwiki/...CP.YuenKayShan)

in the last paragraph it talks about yuen kay san teaching yip man briefly when yip's house was burned down and yips grandfather being an opium boat captain. these details i had not heard of. i had only been told about yuen teaching yip a little sticky hands.

Are you saying that Yip Man system Sticking Hands is superficial when compared to Yuen Kay Shan WCK Sticking Hands? Or are you saying that when Yip Man went to learn Sticking Hands from YKS, his knowledge was superficial?