Profound respect for Si Kwok Lam and Yip Chun, re: Yuen Kay San

[CFT]

Ip Man went to Japan? And worked as a japanese translator? Are you calling him a traitor?

It wouldn't have been unusual for a son of a rich family to continue their education in Japan in those days. Heck, even the Father of the Republic Sun Yat-Sen spent time in Japan.

The translator thing is a new one.

[chusauli]

Nothing to get angry about, you state your facts, I state mine with reference to family interviews, goverment text, chinese reports and also common sense

Your statements implicate Ng Chun So to have not taught Ip Man anything
Or Chan Wah Shun to have not shown Ip Man nothing, yet he is officially a listed student.
Or Leung Bik did not exist.
Did Chan Wah Shun, Leung Bik and Ng Chun So only know chong choi? And Ng Chun So tasked to teach Ip Man only teach him Chong Choi? It makes no sense.

I agree with Shadow Warrior. If you think about WCK skills, many are extrapolated and practiced separately from the sets. Combining Jik Chung Chui with Siu Nim Tao, one already has a great deal of the curriculum in WCK, that may be practiced in Chi Sao.

Stupid stories that are passed on still have to be looked at with some wisdom.

[Shadow_warrior8]

It wouldn't have been unusual for a son of a rich family to continue their education in Japan in those days. Heck, even the Father of the Republic Sun Yat-Sen spent time in Japan.

The translator thing is a new one.

Yes thats true
In fact the Jing Wu story is Chen Zhen went to Japan to further his studies only to come back when his Sifu Huo Yuan Jia was killed

However, there is no evidence for Ip Man having gone to japan or having worked for the japanese. In those days, the anti japanese vibes were strong because of hardship and torture. All throughout asia, china, if you were working for the japs, you were a traitor and most not worthy of the term hero together with Yiu Choi and Yuen Kay San.

That is not the way Ip Man is remembered in china or by his descendants historically.

What we see from Ip man, who is said to not even want to teach Bruce lee because of his mixed heritage, working for the japanese looks unlikely.

If he did, he wouldnt have to abandon his home and leave for hongkong.

[hunt1]

"yuen kay san would fight these matches and tell the historian au sui jee to give credit to leung jan because he did not want to attract attention to himself and his family. as a result, leung jan gained a lot of notoriety."

Leung Jan died around 1887 give or take a few years. YKS was born in 1889. So Leung Jan had been dead about 15 or so years before YKS even did his first tan sau.

Reading these stories the first thing that comes to my mind is that we have found the wing chun version of scientology . I see Tom Cruise jumping on a couch and screaming at Matt Lauer how he doesnt know the truth about YKS only he Pacruise knows the truth.

And what is the point. Even if YKS was Superman and SN was HulK it doesnt mean anyone has their skill or abilities. Unless when you get into a fight you hope that YKS or perhaps Xenu will magically come to your aid and infuse you with his super human powers.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Wow...just wow...
I have to ask:
What the **** does this have to do with WC and how effective it is as a fighting art?
Because beyond that, who gives a **** about ANY MA ???

[Pacman]

did not say he did not learn anything besides chung choi. i said the only two things he could use effectively were chung choi and pak sau. i also made an observation that you see those two moves so heavily emphasized in many YM lineages

also, hendrik, records of yuen kay san's achievements are kept by the chinese government. the museum i am talking about in fatsan is the curated by the chinese government. it is not a privately owned museum.

yes there is a private yuen kay san museum just like there is a private yip man museum, but the one i am talking about is equivalent to a kung fu hall of fame, run by the chinese government.

[reneritchie]

BTW - There was never a fight with Wong Fei Hung, it was with a completely different individual with a similar sounding name. I believe Au Soy Jee did include that story in his writings.

[Pacman]

Hi Renee yes you know your facts.

There is a book name "Yuen Kay San 6 1/2 point staff skillfully defeating Wong Fai Long" written by Ou Shui Ji, first, and later he quickly wrote the book again titled" Leung Jan 6 1/2 piont staff defeating Wong Fei Long"

I have a copy of the second book, and only hand copy the first.

Back then the practice of changing a defeated person's name slightly, i.e from Wong Fei Hong to Wong Fei Long, was a very common thing to allow a person to save face.

[Pacman]

"yuen kay san would fight these matches and tell the historian au sui jee to give credit to leung jan because he did not want to attract attention to himself and his family. as a result, leung jan gained a lot of notoriety."

Leung Jan died around 1887 give or take a few years. YKS was born in 1889. So Leung Jan had been dead about 15 or so years before YKS even did his first tan sau.

yes thats the whole point. yuen kay san did not want to a lot of attention on him so he asked the authors to give credit to a dead person.

[Hendrik]

did not say he did not learn anything besides chung choi.


i said the only two things he could use effectively were chung choi and pak sau.


i also made an observation that you see those two moves so heavily emphasized in many YM lineages

1, have you been there at Ip Man' time to witness?

2, some one emphasized something doesnt mean IP Man only could use those effectively.

3, BTW, Some one can use TKD side kick and it is perfectly effective WCK.
Side Kick is just an expression. WCK is what one express.


if Pak Sau and Chung Choi are enough to do the job and it is expressing WCK what is the issue?

However, if one cant identify what is WCK and taking Pak Sau or anything as WCK that is issue.


To be real honest and blunt may be, if one is not at the level to know " Seal, broken structure, and momentum flow control" or the soul of WCK is execute in the same instant while in action, one doesnt know WCK.


for those who knows it and has master it.

Everything is just Comes Accept, Goes return, release and thus forward. Who care what pak sau or tan sau or what TKD Kick. None of those move or shape is WCK without the WCK soul.


I see the Soul of WCK in YKS, SN..... IP Man, his students, and his grandstudents. So, it is absurd to do those accusation above. Whoever make it up that story doesnt know WCK. that is forsure.

how many here can do the soul of WCK? I know Robert Chu can do it, Gary Lam can do it.. and those are IP Man's decendent. Can you do it?

also, hendrik, records of yuen kay san's achievements are kept by the chinese government. the museum i am talking about in fatsan is the curated by the chinese government. it is not a privately owned museum.
yes there is a private yuen kay san museum just like there is a private yip man museum, but the one i am talking about is equivalent to a kung fu hall of fame, run by the chinese government.

I have never doubt about YKS's achievements.

My point is simply, let's not be little Yip Man and recognized his contribution too beside YKS's achievements.

[Hendrik]

Hi Renee yes you know your facts.

There is a book name "Yuen Kay San 6 1/2 point staff skillfully defeating Wong Fai Long" written by Ou Shui Ji, first, and later he quickly wrote the book again titled" Leung Jan 6 1/2 piont staff defeating Wong Fei Long"

I have a copy of the second book, and only hand copy the first.

Back then the practice of changing a defeated person's name slightly, i.e from Wong Fei Hong to Wong Fei Long, was a very common thing to allow a person to save face.

If this type of HIS-STORY could be taken as real then WCK is in big trouble.

BTW. the reason I go EMEI and WHITE CRANE is because I dont buy this type of story even within family. One needs to get official Chinese history records to cross examine.

[Pacman]

If this type of HIS-STORY could be taken as real then WCK is in big trouble.

BTW. the reason I go EMEI and WHITE CRANE is because I dont buy this type of story even within family. One needs to get official Chinese history records to cross examine.

lets forget about the pak sau chung choi debate. no one can prove anything, we can just speculate.

my main point is that yuen kay san's achievements are all documented and recorded by the chinese government. you can choose to believe what i said about SN and YM, either way there is no proof that things did or did not happen. im just sharing my knowledge, i understand if it upsets some people.

[Hendrik]

im just sharing my knowledge, i understand if it upsets some people.

Imho,

If we share it in the way that YKS has his place to be respected, and Ip Man has his value.

There will be no upsets. People knows what is the facts. However, it is human nature to defend their family if it was attacked instead of point out there is issue.


well, we all are learning...

peace

[Pacman]

If this type of HIS-STORY could be taken as real then WCK is in big trouble.

BTW. the reason I go EMEI and WHITE CRANE is because I dont buy this type of story even within family. One needs to get official Chinese history records to cross examine.

what are you talking about regarding emei and white crane?

[Hendrik]

what are you talking about regarding emei and white crane?

The DNA of WCK, why it is design as it is and do what it is; in term of power generation, forms, momentum, strategy....etc. in stead of getting into HIS-STORY over HIS-STORY, un trace able, un confirm able, un endose able , un verify able, by other styles and Chinese official history, which say not much but promotion one's family.

Believe it or not we could have major of WCK well define, sort out, and clearly explain today.