Profound respect for Si Kwok Lam and Yip Chun, re: Yuen Kay San

[Pacman]

The DNA of WCK, why it is design as it is and do what it is; in term of power generation, forms, momentum, strategy....etc. in stead of getting into HIS-STORY over HIS-STORY, un trace able, un confirm able, un endose able , un verify able, by other styles and Chinese official history, which say not much but promotion one's family.

Believe it or not we could have major of WCK well define, sort out, and clearly explain today.

you did not really answer my question, are you saying WC comes from emei mountain and white crane?

i am also led to believe that WC has emei roots. its similarities to xing yi, bagua and taiji are quite apparent. there are more similarities to those styles than to shaolin hard styles.

[bennyvt]

Bruce lee didnt learn off yip man. Robert chu isn't a yip man descandant.
If YKS and SN were so great where are all there great students that would be heaps better then all yip man guys.
Wouldn't YM be like 70 when SN went to see him in the 70's. Would he really beat up an old man, or not fight all the guys who were beating everyone in hong kong.
that wouldn't prove it at all. Your story has so many holes in it. Yip chun didn't learn off his dad. He didn't really learn until after he died.
I think your teacher was trying to look good.

[Hendrik]

you did not really answer my question, are you saying WC comes from emei mountain and white crane?

It doesnt matter where it is from, what matter is there are evidence to be verify.



i am also led to believe that WC has emei roots. its similarities to xing yi, bagua and taiji are quite apparent. there are more similarities to those styles than to shaolin hard styles.

IMHO

Believing is not fact.

hard styles shaolin, Xing yi, bagua, and taiji are extremely extremely distance from WCK. They all uses different type of strategy, power generation, and movements.


One needs to have evidence to say something, instead of believing and quessing.

[Pacman]

Bruce lee didnt learn off yip man. Robert chu isn't a yip man descandant.
If YKS and SN were so great where are all there great students that would be heaps better then all yip man guys.
Wouldn't YM be like 70 when SN went to see him in the 70's. Would he really beat up an old man, or not fight all the guys who were beating everyone in hong kong.
that wouldn't prove it at all. Your story has so many holes in it. Yip chun didn't learn off his dad. He didn't really learn until after he died.
I think your teacher was trying to look good.

people talked about stuff in the 70s, things happened much earlier when YKS was alive

never said yip chun learned from his dad. said he came to ask SN to teach him

[Shadow_warrior8]

lets forget about the pak sau chung choi debate. no one can prove anything, we can just speculate.

my main point is that yuen kay san's achievements are all documented and recorded by the chinese government. you can choose to believe what i said about SN and YM, either way there is no proof that things did or did not happen. im just sharing my knowledge, i understand if it upsets some people.

lets forget about the pak sau chung choi debate. no one can prove anything, we can just speculate.

I guess your statement says it all. You are speculating. Why cant you accept the Ip Clan offering tea for a movie storyline and accept it like Yuen Jo Tong has.

As are the legends of leung jan and the legends of ip man, and your posts that speak of ip man, his family, yiu choi are all WRONG when we look at the written history recorded IN CHINA. It sounds like someone who is jealous of the fame of Ip man(can anyone dispute he is famous? or bruce lee) and is spreading rumours after they have passed on for 30 years

I have yet to see 1 article or 1 video of those things you mentioned. You would be more conviencing if you had even 1 mention somewhere. And you have no mention of the historical data, videos, chinese text I posted which reveal the holes of your statements about Ip Man's life in fatshan.

As for Yuen Kay San accomplisements being detailed by the chinese goverment I am going to get on it. Because I am a fan of his lineage and yiu choi, mainland china, well wingchun in general and I embrace the diversity. Its was their intepretation and with that, will lead generations to later develop themselves and maybe even better the art, if its possible

If you are looking to speak up for Yuen Kay San and family, I suggest you start from a position of respect and gratitude. That seems to be how these 3 heros of Yuen, Yiu and Ip are remembered in China and speaks of their deep ties.

If Ip man didnt leave to go to hongkong would half of the world even know what wingchun is, and some big parts are attributed to Bruce Lee of course.

[Shadow_warrior8]

http://www.wingchun.si/yipman.htm

And yes, Senior Hendrik, I have started learning white crane as part of my study into wingchun amongst the other internal arts we have talked before

White crane definately influenced wing chun in a big way.

[goju]

Wow...just wow...
I have to ask:
What the **** does this have to do with WC and how effective it is as a fighting art?
Because beyond that, who gives a **** about ANY MA ???

its still abit odd for me to grasp exactly why some people are so obsessed with the past of their art whether it be who kicked whos ass or who kicked ass at all or who learned this supposed technique

i mean what the **** do any of these people who lived waaaaaay back then have to do with any one alive practicing an art to day?

[Shadow_warrior8]

its still abit odd for me to grasp exactly why some people are so obsessed with the past of their art whether it be who kicked whos ass or who kicked ass at all or who learned this supposed technique

i mean what the **** do any of these people who lived waaaaaay back then have to do with any one alive practicing an art to day?

In the chinese arts, respect the teacher and the way(history and culture) is part of Mo Dak
If we are only concerned with kicking people's ass, forget asian cultures because they honour their teachers and believe in remember the source of the water you drink. We dont need martial arts to kick someone ass, we just need intent and a weapon, human or artificial.

Since I do boxing, I find they do too, honour the heros. When we look backwards in gratefulness, sometimes we understand what we are doing in the present.

[Shadow_warrior8]

http://www.hudong.com/wiki/%E9%98%AE...98%A5%E6%8B%B3

[goju]

i dont think quarreling over who did this or that and who learned from who is honouring your teacher

its being petty in fact


who cares if certain people acknowledge their supposed accomplishments?

they know they did them( if they did do them) so im sure when they were alive they rested easy knowing that and didnt concern themselves with what others either did or would think in the future

and neither should you

[Shadow_warrior8]

i dont think quarreling over who did this or that and who learned from who is honouring your teacher

its being petty in fact


who cares if certain people acknowledge their supposed accomplishments?

they know they did them( if they did do them) so im sure when they were alive they rested easy knowing that and didnt concern themselves with what others either did or would think in the future

and neither should you

If we follow your opinion should the Yuen descendants and Yiu descendants keep quiet? Or the Ip descendants when untruths are told to tarnish his name?

You are welcomed to your opinion. I will state things as the chinese martial culture requires

Changing history and rubbing their name in the mud after a lifetime of devotion to the art is certainly not honouring them.

[Shadow_warrior8]

阮奇山一脉的咏春拳

A nice old article on Master Yuen

http://www.ystwingchun.com/bbs/read.php?tid=54

[goju]

If we follow your opinion should the Yuen descendants and Yiu descendants keep quiet? Or the Ip descendants when untruths are told to tarnish his name?

You are welcomed to your opinion. I will state things as the chinese martial culture requires

Changing history and rubbing their name in the mud after a lifetime of devotion to the art is certainly not honouring them.

i"ll tell ya this first of all. The almost sure fire way to not get respect is to demand it.


Nor would i as a teacher be proud of my students if they resorted to fighting with each other over bits of history niether side can really prove. And lets face it how many people can prove a **** thing in here? Not just regarding wc history either but pretty much every martial art history and its legends


honour your teacher by training hard and spreading his teachings not demanding people acknowledge him, he knows he was a good martial artist practioner and so do you so just leave it at that and dont bother with the rest.

[Shadow_warrior8]

i"ll tell ya this first of all. The almost sure fire way to not get respect is to demand it.


Nor would i as a teacher be proud of my students if they resorted to fighting with each other over bits of history niether side can really prove. And lets face it how many people can prove a **** thing in here? Not just regarding wc history either but pretty much every martial art history and its legends


honour your teacher by training hard and spreading his teachings not demanding people acknowledge him, he knows he was a good martial artist practioner and so do you so just leave it at that and dont bother with the rest.

If you feel so strong about it, go and tell the Yuen and Yiu Family who are insisting restitution

I am talking about martial traditions, mo dak and the chinese way of doing things, that are pillars of traditional kung fu.

Dont pollute it with your own principles and tell people, lineage holders and descendants who have hundreds and some thousands of years of tradition to follow your ways.

There are official records kept by families, goverments, museums, told in interviews and videos because of modern technology etc.... Thats how you get to know anything about anything information from reliable sources, and verified. So if based on your theory nothing can be proved then really, how do you get by your day?

And I am pretty sure the people in china and asia train hard, as you do.
As people in wingchun have very prominent skilled people, who have done exactly that.

So they have one up, martial virtues and values.
Respect the teacher and the way
One day as a teacher, one lifetime as a father

This is not about blind loyalty, its about respect and honouring the source of the water you drink. (and we do so irregardless of whether the teacher honours back, we do our part)

Its not about demanding respect, its about allowing your ancestors to not have their good name tarnished.
I think in the west, its called defamation and law suits are fought every day all over the world

You can have the last word on "your" values. I am presenting this case, as it is with information from all sides. You are talking your own thing with nothing to reference from either clan.

[goju]

I would tell them that or anyone else if i had the oppurtunity too.

Those traditions aren't anything unique to "the chinese way" rather youll see that in basically every culture around the world.

the things is these ways are outdated.

For one typically these disputes were settled by two people fighting to the death and i certainly cant go around lopping people noggins off with a sword because my great great great great great great great great grandfather cathasaigh did it in ancient ireland when someone besmirched his good name.


In this day and age people arent going to like you, People are going to speak ill of you, they may lie about you, and guess what? they are gonna get away with it and you respond to it like a civilized mature adult by ignoring it.

"Dont pollute it with your own principles and tell people, lineage holders and descendants who have hundreds and some thousands of years of tradition to follow your ways."

i like any other dedicated martial artist hold hundreds of years of tradition with me so its not like im speaking from the perspective of an outsider


"There are official records kept by families, goverments, museums, told in interviews and videos because of modern technology etc.... Thats how you get to know anything about anything information from reliable sources, and verified. So if based on your theory nothing can be proved then really, how do you get by your day? "

I never said nothing can be proved and if everything was this well documented then how come like with almost all martial history discussions this is coming down to people being taught a variety of conflicting stories and not willing to budge over it?


I would like to think my ancestors are resting in peace not concerning themselves with the petty squabbles of the living wouldnt you?

I'm merely using logic . Tradtions are fine and i have my own that are native to my culture but some are either outdated or silly to begin with and should thus be changed or tossed out entirely.

Think about it what exactly is this accompishing?

Has any one proved anything?

no

Has anyone gotten their way?

no

in reality the arguements just make it look like both parties are stretching the truth and distorting facts( even if they arent) which only makes you and your master look bad in the end