Good post, Chee.
Banned
Good post, Chee.
Banned
You should take your own advice.Originally Posted by Pacman
This was dealt with and illustrates how you have your facts wrong.the meeting was an apology meeting, not just toasting someone for respect. in the yangcheng newspaper the title of the article was:
《叶问前传》被指污蔑咏春派 道歉会没开始差点开打
which talks about how there was an apology meeting because the yip man 2 movie is slanderous to yuen kay san
So, your reasoning is that because an article doesn't exist lauding someone's skill, they can't have skill?i cannot produce an article from the time of yip man detailing yip man skills. thats the whole point. because of your skill level and level of fame you won't see an article about hendrik santos or shadow warrior's skills either.
It doesn't.you are a big WC researcher, as is hendrik. then ask yourself this--why does YM wing chun have Yuen Kay San's signature all over it?
There is no doubt that YKS was senior to Yip. Nor is there any doubt that both YKS and Sum Nung were highly skilled and recognized for that. And it well-known that YKS and Yip were "friends", and that Yip trained with YKS/Sum. Certainly Yip took things from that training, including the luk sao platform of chi sao that YKS/SN created.
I think if we look at Yip's own words, we see that he credits Chan and Ng Chung So (and his other sihings) for his training, and doesn't mention anything about Leung Bik. That was just a story created -- like many others -- by Lee Man in this case.People say YM learned from Chan Wah Shun and then Leung Bik.
Because the three forms were created by Wong Wah Bo, who passed them on to Leung Jan (who taught CWS) and Fok Bo Cheung (who taught YKS).Why then does the YM lineage have 3 forms (Siu Lim Tao, Chum Kiu, Biu Jee)
Because since you only have 7 "points", how many movements do you think you need to teach them?and why is their 6.5 point staff have a dozen or so movements?
Where do you get this nonsense? All of the people who learned from CWS, have "only" the 3 forms -- unless they expanded their curriculum.If YM had really learned from Chan Wah Shun then his wing chun would have 12 forms (some stuff we don't see that often such as Dai Lim Tao) and the 6.5 pole would have 108 movements, which was the original WC at the time.
No. This is false.Yuen Kay San simplified redundancy and eliminated things he thought were not useful--reduced the WC he learned which into the three forms. he also minimized the 108 movements of the 6.5 pole.
Yes, it is well-known that Chan Miu Yin added much to his curriculum from local southern fist. This is not unusual.Chan Wah Shun's grandson wrote a book on wing chun kuen in Chinese, where it details the 12 forms etc!
Again, not completely accurate.Leung Jan later simplified what he knew into 22 san sau and we know that as Kulo WC. I think their staff is 3.5 point too.
You need to do a lot more "research". and it helps if you don't do it from a lineage-centric perspective.
Registered User
but the point is, a master who has learnt what he has, can decide to remember it as he deems. Its his art.
Master Cheung doesnt call it Yik Kam I dont think.
I never learnt any Chum Kil, Bil Jee in that lineage. And in China, as my friends there tell me its only 1 set- Shaolin Tao.
I approve of everyone speculation and their own naming ......etc.
However, are those speculation contribute to solving the issue or contribute to more confusion, that is what they need to face.
Registered User
regarding Yiu Choy and Chan Wah Shun...
the book is call "Wing Chun Kuen" by Hon Quang Gow a student of Chan Wah Shun's great grandson, there is many in the series. You will see that they have more than 3 forms and 108 movements. Everyone today likes to coincide with YKS' 3 forms and reduce--it is much simpler.
Registered User
My view is every one seems like to be a grand master and write all kind of books or article or making movies to promote his view.
However, what is WCK? up to now since YKS's generation how many could describe it clearly disregards of all the Books, seminals, web arguement.....etc.
See, if one doesnt know what it is, disregard of how many sets or how many books, there is no punch line but all kind of scattering and even confusing /contradictory information.
Up to now, most what have read here are just he says she says and HIS-STORY. what do these contribute to? more confusion.
Last edited by Hendrik; 08-20-2010 at 11:17 AM.
Wing Chun Fighter
@pacman what do u think about the Big Idea or Dai Lim Tao?
What are the 22 san shou called and what are the 12 forms called?
is there any video footage of them?
I would love to see it?
Dai Lim Tao looks way different than the other three forms. It almost looks more Shaolin!
The Flow is relentless like a raging ocean with crashing waves devasting anything in its path.
"Kick Like Thunder, Strike Like Lighting, Fist Hard as Stones."
"Wing Chun flows around overwhelming force and finds openings with its constant flow of forward energy."
"Always Attack, Be Aggressive always Attack first, Be Relentless. Continue with out ceasing. Flow Like Water, Move like the wind, Attack Like Fire. Consume and overwhelm your Adversary until he is No More"
Registered User
i dont want to spend too much time on this, but then why does YKS' brother's lineage have more than the 3 forms and staff movements? that suggests what he learned was not the standard 3 forms we know today
Registered User
terrence i cant believe i am bothering to respond to you because for a lawyer you are incredibly unintelligent yet believe you know everything.
i will just respond to your mischaracterizations of my arguments
no my point is that i cannot produce a document detailing what yip man does and does not know. its like trying to produce a document of what terrence niehoff knows. why the hell would anyone write a document about terrence niehoff? therefore we can only work off of other clues, such as terrence niehoff says he knows all about all forms of WCK and fighting because robert chu ripped him off of thousands of dollars and read a book.So, your reasoning is that because an article doesn't exist lauding someone's skill, they can't have skill?
WCK even since the red boat had a lot more forms. even YKS and his brother were taught this type of WCK. this is why even YKS's brother's lineage has a lot more 'material' even though they had the same teacher. YKS was the one who simplified to the three forms we knowYes, it is well-known that Chan Miu Yin added much to his curriculum from local southern fist. This is not unusual.
Junior Member
I remember seeing early Vietnamese WCK from Yuen Chai Wan's branch in the 1980's and it had one Siu Lien Tao (very similar to YKS), did not have Chum Kiu or Biu Jee, but had some additional hand sets and 5 animals Hei Gung sets. The 6.5 point staff was not similar at all to either the YKS or Yip Man version. They were known for their Gim set and had a set of Yee Ji Cern Dao.
Yip Man's 6.5 point pole set and the YKS 6.5 point pole set are very close. The 3 forms are very close. If you look at Leung Sheung's 3 WCK sets, it looks very much like YKS WCK, sans the Ngoi Huen Sao and the circular moves in CK and BJ in YKS.
YKS has 3 forms, a unique Jong set, 6.5 point pole and Yee Ji Cern Dao. The Yee Ji Dao does not come from Fung Siu Ching or Kok Bo Chuen - but may have been extracted from Cheung Bo's teachings.
Both Yip Man and YKS 6.5 point pole are dissimilar to Siu Lam Weng Chun's 6.5 point pole which I studied from Andreas Hoffman, whigh is descended from Fung Siu Ching. The latter form is more complex and richer in variation.
The Futshan WCK that Yip Man taught bears a strong resemblance to YKDS WCK, but not as soft and rounded.
Junior Member
Pacman, you are talking out of your a$$. This type of talk is unwarranted and does not involve me. If you have a beef with Terence, take it up with him. Perhaps you would like me to talk about Sum Nung or Tom Wong in the same apathetic manner?
YKS' brother changed the system when he went to SEA. Just take a look yourself. Both brothers learned from the same teachers. You can see the differences.
As for Chan Yiu Min, he also changed the system and added a lot to the system.
More than the 3 forms (but Yik Kam has 1 set that embodies the teachings of the 3 forms and some Jong), Jong, pole and knives, you are looking at add ons. Pseudo or prototype WCK forms on the redboat may have existed, but they were additions of WCK with something else. WCK has a unique power signature and training methodology which characterizes it. That's why "lost" or "newly re-discovered" forms can be taken with a grain of salt.
Junior Member
A look at their sets and you know it has the trademarks/signature moves of YKS/Sum Nung WCK.
Registered User
Ive seen the grandson of chan wah shun. He's a joke. He just goes off the fact that he is from that family.
I ask again, where are all the great YKS guys that could beat us all.
As I said before sounds like a little baby crying that someone else is more famous then them. Suck it up dude.
Registered User
yes exactly the point. YKS and his brother did not learn the simplified version we know today from their two WC teachers. YKS simplified
exactly my point again. this is what I am talking about YKS signature.Yip Man's 6.5 point pole set and the YKS 6.5 point pole set are very close. The 3 forms are very close. If you look at Leung Sheung's 3 WCK sets, it looks very much like YKS WCK, sans the Ngoi Huen Sao and the circular moves in CK and BJ in YKS.
bingo again. like i have been saying all along, the WC that YKS learned was more complex. he was the one who simplified.Both Yip Man and YKS 6.5 point pole are dissimilar to Siu Lam Weng Chun's 6.5 point pole which I studied from Andreas Hoffman, whigh is descended from Fung Siu Ching. The latter form is more complex and richer in variation.
The book I mentioned before is evidence of the previously complex WCK of the Red Boat. The Weng Chun that Andreas Hoffman teaches, is said to come from Fung Siu Ching as well and is more complex with forms and movements. So we can easily establish that WCK is not the simple system we see today, even as recently as the early 1900s
so who simplified it?
of course you could make an argument that no it was actually YM who did the simplification, but we have already established that YKS was
-the senior student compared to YM
-YKS was the actual one who was part of the richest family in Fatsan.
-YKS was the one who gave instruction to YM for a while when the Yip family was burned down due to the Yip family's drug smuggling connections, again suggesting superiority in WC skill and knowledge
-YKS never worked a day in his life due to his wealth, had the best and most expensive teachers money could buy, housed his teacher Fung Siu Ching in the traditional way, learning from him every day until Fung Siu Ching died.
Compare this to the facts about YM:
-we also know that YM only learned from Chan Wah Shun for a few months before Chan Wah Shun he died, and then had to learn from his Sihing. His involvement with Leung Bik and the "secret" wing chun is under question.
People can make their own conclusion as to what happened. we have established the facts, here is my analysis.
Did YM create the simpler version of WC in between having his house burnt down and fleeing to HK, only to have YKS, the senior student, take the new version.
Or did YKS, the senior student, who had all the time and money in the world, who did nothing but practice WC and fight in duels (records kept and verified by government run Chinese Historical Kung Fu Assocation), streamline the WC he learned and have it spread out to others.
thank you for your input and verification of the facts i presented. as we all know, Robert has spent a lot of time learning WC history
i have presented my analysis. everyone can make their own. i have met in Guangdong people without a dog in this race--a student of YM when he was in Fatsan, and the widow of a YKS student. Both have said everyone knows that YKS is the most famous and well known WCK practitioner of those days. YKS skill and conditioning were beyond reproach. he could jab his fingers into a japanese soldier's helmet and leave 5 finger dents.
Last edited by Pacman; 08-20-2010 at 04:51 PM.
Registered User
i dont care that YM is more famous in the west and even in modern day parts of asia outside of fatsan.
i have been a member of these forums for a while and i have never brought up these facts, i just contributed what i know because renee opened this thread
Registered User
i could be wrong but it was said that cheung bo's WCK was entirely san sik based. again, people can add to their WCK and it is likely that if you are to add forms to your WCK you would add the standard 3 forms we see today and not the old 12+
you also mentioned about YKS at ng chung so's night club, learning form YM
YKS was rich, he had nothing to do but relax his whole life. just because he watched people practice WC does not mean he was learning from them. he also watched Cheung Bo teach Sum Nung Cheung Bo's restaurant, he was not learning from Cheung Bo
If Mike Tyson watched a kid train at a boys boxing gym, it doesnt mean hes learning from the kid!
in any case im done with this thread. ive shared what i know and admitted certain things are unprovable on both sides of the argument. its up to you if you want to take what is known and draw your own analysis from there.
Last edited by Pacman; 08-20-2010 at 06:54 PM.
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