Registered User
Variety of different form demo and application teaching clips here from Chen Zhaokui lineage. Please enjoy.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C_nlcTNnWUk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RYcnCzgg-rM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qMlJGW-gQsU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PrEiMzW7OHQ
GM of Hadaka Korosu
You may not like to hear this but those applications prove only one thing:Originally Posted by Mo Ling
That taiji will only work vs itself.
Which is typical of 99% of all the MA being demoed on youtube, so you are not alone.
No one will ever attack you like that and learning to apply Taiji in a way that is not practical doesn't make a lot of sense, does it?
Psalms 144:1
Praise be my Lord my Rock,
He trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle !
Registered User
In the last app clip, would it be fair to say that if, after practicing it, the two did it in a way where the attacker threw the fist and then withdrew it like a normal striker, with distance not presert, and the technique worked, you'd be fine with it?
This is why I strongly avoid dwelling on training this sort of app training: the distance is set, and the puncher always holds their hand out for a long time. It's a way to get an idea for what you're physically supposed to do, but it must quickly be followed up by facing a real strike(which, for people learning, requires gloves) coming from non-set distance.
It's also why I avoid declarations on what is useful and what isn't that I haven't myself tested a lot. A demo that doesn't show the full app in a live setting cannot be used to judge the technique it is demoing either way.
I didn't mind those demos and the forms at all, but I still have a taste for seeing the move applied further in a more realistic manner. To judge whether the technique is realistic based on this sort of demo is, imo, judging off of something one was not given the info to judge.
I myself am requesting footage of the same inviolving gloves and a distance that isn't set, not because I doubt the technique, but because, if the technique is being taught, those details are vital to teaching it.
Just my opinion. Arguing all day will never provide the info that asking for more info or footage might. If I share my work, I would do so in the hopes of constructive contributions that I might not have thought of, so I assume others are doing the same, not making a declarative statement on what all fighting is.
GM of Hadaka Korosu
Reactive fighting is just that, reactive.
I am not a big fan for many reasons but the most obvious is that it makes your body react to the situation based on how it is drilled, in other words:
Training to defend a punch coming at you WHEN you want it, to WHERE you want it and HOW you wanted will do nothing for you when Billy-Bob tries to tee of your head with 5 years of pro boxing experience AND when you didn't even know you were in a fight yet !
Psalms 144:1
Praise be my Lord my Rock,
He trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle !
Registered User
Definitely.
However, let's assume that you picked two techs, one that presumed a lead, one that presumed a cross, and the attacker chose when and which one, and they could move about(though not change their relative stance, meaning if it was orthodox facing ortodox at the start, it stays orthodox facing orthodox, just allow "stalking"), so that the other would have to deal with judging distance.
It's still reactive, but less reactive, because it involves choices the defender does not get to make, and ingrains timing and distance.
Would doing such techs in such a drill, in your opinion, be valuable?
Last edited by KC Elbows; 08-17-2010 at 07:17 AM.
GM of Hadaka Korosu
Semi-freestyle sparring like that is a great building block and is one of the best way to work on creating and developing correct reactions to certain attacks not seen in day-to-day sparring.
Psalms 144:1
Praise be my Lord my Rock,
He trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle !
Registered User
Speaking of training against things that mostly don't happen!
Five years pro boxing experience? I mean, I'm all for training against refined technique, but I've met the average *******s who start fights, I've met the average criminal who'll do sketchy stuff, and, living a lot closer to Billy-Bob's than the average Canadian, I've met the average Billy-Bob, and none of them were pro boxers for five days, much less five years!
Will I be facing a rock troll after this confrontation?
Registered User
Well, these are skills that one would want to have in taijiquan, and these are situations and methods in which to examine and learn them.
"In the last app clip, would it be fair to say that if, after practicing it, the two did it in a way where the attacker threw the fist and then withdrew it like a normal striker, with distance not present, and the technique worked, you'd be fine with it?"
Yes I would be fine with it of course. The result would be very different but certainly normal. If one were to allow the time for the opponent to retrieve his fist before the second one launches this particular application method will not be viable. If this is done very very fast, there must be no gap and there are other specific pieces that must be added that are not shown here. This is simply the 'laboratory' for positional and methodological learning.
In a real fight one may or may not ever stumble upon the particular opportunities presented in these videos, but if they did, it would be nice to have these abilities. If the action occurs such that what is presented here is not viable, there are other methods that become viable, not shown here. In terms of gloves, we don't do that. This is not sport. Thanks for watching.
Chen Zhaokui Taijiquan Association North America
http://www.taijigongfu.com
Resigned
I think you are missing the point somewhat; what KC and Sanjuro are suggesting is that, if you don't train these techniques in the manner in which someone will more realistically attack you, then one will not know if in fact they are viable in the context of a resisting opponent attacking in an unpredictable situation; in other words, when you change the contextual parameters of a task, the techniques themselves may not fit the task requirements of that new context, and may therefore either ned to be significantly modified or discarded all together; you yourself state that one "may or may not stumble upon the particular opportunities presented in theses videos" - well, if you do "stumble" upon them, they are not going to be in quite the same manner as in the vids, so training them in the context you show isn't going to realy prepare you to use them; and if one doesn't "stumble" upon these opportunities, then why bother to train them at all? this is what is talked about when people are concerned with "high pecentage" techniques - the ony way to really know what is high percentage is to pressure test and see if they work often enough in that situation to be viable;
as far as your rather abrupt dismissal of using gloves: I think you fail to realize that using gloves to train doesn't imply a sporting context: what it allows you to do is go full speed and power and to make mistakes without getting so injured that you need to stop training; for example, if you are trying to defend off of a face punch combo at full speed and power, you are, sooner or later (more likely sooner), get hit; if your partner is wearing gloves, both your face and his knuckles are going to survive much longer in order to be able to analyze what went wrong and practice fixing it; so it's just a training tool, much in the way that push-hands or forms training is as well - get it? then, having done that and being more confident, one could train with out the use of gloves to add to the realism even more;
don't misunderstand - no one is bashing you here - on the continuum of taiji practice, what you are practicing is at least reasonable, as opposed to the sort of thing where we see students being thrown back 100' feet by their teacher flexing his pinkie finger; to that sort of silliness, the only reasonable response is derision; in your case, it seems you are making a sincere and realistic attempt to work things that could be useful; what is being suggested is that by altering the context of practice, you might derive greater benefit and discern more clearly the effectiveness of what you are doing in a non-compliant and unpredictable situation;
otherwise, thank you for sharing your efforts, best to you;
Registered User
I think one thing Sanjuro Ronin is saying is that he would like to see the technique done at speed, where the attacker is retracting his arm after the attack, as is the norm in both chinese martial arts and western ones.
For a drill that requires defense against a punch, gloves on the attacker allows the defender to train defending against the actual thing he is trying to defend against, whereas the lack of them tends to lead to several problems, namely not targeting, not withdrawing the arm(which turns into compliance), and not using reasonable force, so that the defender, in the end, is no longer training against what he or she initially intended to train against.In terms of gloves, we don't do that. This is not sport.
Gloves are merely tools. That some associate them with sport does not mean that they are only useful for sport. I am not saying you cannot put up clips where those techniques are being worked against an actual attack, but those clips are not that: in each case, the attacker holds his arm out for demonstration purposes, but this should be followed up with actual usage, as that is where the taiji lies, not in the static explanation, but the joining of energies. A dead arm being held out cannot be used to demo taiji well, it can play a role in the beginning of an explanation, but the next part must be dealing with a real blow.
Back on the topic of gloves. I understand that some techniques don't work with gloves on, but one cannot train those techniques well against weak or noncommital attacks, and, without the aid of gloves, those learning the techniques would suffer unnnecessary blows from the attacker as they worked on the technique when the attacker had intent(and, more often, the attacker would fail to use intent and throw meaningless blows or hold their limb out compliantly), while, with gloves on the attacker, they would more consistently be working the technique against what it is intended for than in training without.
Again, if you have a means to showcase the technique without gloves that is better, it would be enjoyable and informative to see, but in these clips, each technique the attacker is holding his limb out, so we can't really judge from these clips their effectiveness at speed.
I understand not wishing to use gloves all the time, but for simple punches as another person is trying to work their technique, I argue they are superior than going without. If it is a throw, the attacker can wear gloves while the defender is gloveless. This does not suddenly make what is happening a sport, just as training on plum flowers does not suddenly make a practitioner an acrobat: it is merely using tools to acheive goals.
the ass assassin
your air fajing is very good! u destroy all those bad co2 molecules and stop global warming. u save world.
Honorary African American
grandmaster instructor of Wombat Combat The Lost Art of Anal Destruction™®LLC .
Senior Business Director at TEAM ASSHAMMER consulting services ™®LLC
Registered User
honestly...I don't understand the cause of this discussion...
The description says "form and applications" and the video shows applications from the forms...if you know how to fight, you don't need more than what's provided to figure out how/if to make it real. The videos are sufficient and exactly what they're labeled.
Why judge a school on their free demo videos...do you give your best out for free?
As far as gloves...you don't need gloves to punch realistically.
Mo Ling, you've shown patience and intelligence...more than I would and more than most of the people who get these responses do. Nice.
Registered User
The sparring label was confusing some, so it's not bad to clear things like that up.
People find it nice to see the people showcasing a skill using it realistically. Additionally, one attracts better students by attracting discerning students. There's many apps online that are not workable; since I like the internals, and enjoyed watching his stuff, I suggested he might make it clear he is above that group by including actual usage. There's really nothing wrong with doing so.if you know how to fight, you don't need more than what's provided to figure out how/if to make it real.
He changed the label based on the feedback from here, so it was good. Of course, sometimes miscommunications occur and arguing almost happens, but overall, there was no harm in the discussion.The videos are sufficient and exactly what they're labeled.
Would I want the students who are attracted by less than that?Why judge a school on their free demo videos...do you give your best out for free?
You need gloves to HIT realistically.As far as gloves...you don't need gloves to punch realistically.
If there is no risk of being hit, then the punch isn't realistic.
If there is a chance of getting hit, but the hit is ineffective, then the punch still isn't right.
So, if the punch is effective enough to hit, and effective enough to damage(as a gongfu man punching should be able to), without gloves, this is going to be a short training session ending badly.
Students who punch each other without gloves as they are learning hold back, even the ones who don't think they are, often. If the idea is to train the technique, then gloves allow a greater guarantee that the strike coming out is effective.
[/quote]Mo Ling, you've shown patience and intelligence...more than I would and more than most of the people who get these responses do. Nice.[/QUOTE]
These responses? If I post footage here, I don't think I should be above critique, but I would value critiques attempting to be helpful far above someone agreeing but not adding anything to my own view on what drills we discussed. I have not posited that I am better than him, I suggested some ideas he could use or not, and took part in some discussion. As did a former semi-pro fighter with experience in the internals, and another internals sifu. There were some agreements and some disagreements, but mainly when it seemed, due to the limitations of text, that one or the other might have been thinking they were somehow above the rest.
Registered User
What might you be referring to?
Apparently you have made some mistake. Nothing in this thread, nor those videos on youtube has ever been labeled or even included the word "sparring". Nothing was edited nor changed. Please check your facts, the confusion is entirely yours.
Chen Zhaokui Taijiquan Association North America
http://www.taijigongfu.com
Registered User
Sorry, my mistake, two different conversations from two different threads.
As far as the attitude and needing Dan's "understanding", what use is understanding of the fact that people every bit as experienced as you are trying to give constructive feedback of something you shared, even if it occasionally has misunderstandings?
There's not a guy posting on here consistently with less than twenty years experience, yourself included.
I stand by the fact that your style deserves students who would not choose your style without seeing the full expression of the moves and the steps to get there, not people in awe of fundamental internal approaches.
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