Chen Taijiquan Various Form and Application Videos

[taai gihk yahn]

Hey take it easy fire chief.. I don't think you can see me getting all upset behind the keyboard can you?

no, I don't - why would I? I am just engaging in analytic discourse with you - why would you get upset by that?
although your use of a borderline-pejorative moniker to address me and admonition to "take it easy" would suggest the possibility of some projection of defensiveness on your part, especially considering I have addressed you in nothing but a respectful manner throughout...

I am not particularly worried if you are being critical or not, that is your right. Regardless of how anyone feels, I am also not obligated to agree with or automatically accept whatever critique or response is offered am I.

of course not; no one is suggesting that you are; we are just communicating in a limited medium here, so it's hard to discern whether our respective points are being made clearly, and so we try to be as clear as possible;

In terms of 'special K' etc ideology. If you think these methods are standard available fare on the internet in Chen Taijiquan, as I said I'd love to see the actual items you refer to. I said this before and it was not responded to. I do not recall having seen almost ANY punch and parry work in Chen Taijiquan at all on the internet, but you may know different.

fair enuf, i was talking about my own personal experience in TCMA, taiji included (not Chen, tho); as far as online, I don't know - I've seen so much crap out there, as have you no doubt, it's hard to know what is what; if you haven't come across anything similar, I can believe that;

regards;

[bawang]

your air fajing is very good! u destroy all those bad co2 molecules and stop global warming. u save world.

[ShaolinDan]

honestly...I don't understand the cause of this discussion...
The description says "form and applications" and the video shows applications from the forms...if you know how to fight, you don't need more than what's provided to figure out how/if to make it real. The videos are sufficient and exactly what they're labeled.

Why judge a school on their free demo videos...do you give your best out for free?

As far as gloves...you don't need gloves to punch realistically.

Mo Ling, you've shown patience and intelligence...more than I would and more than most of the people who get these responses do. Nice.

[KC Elbows]

honestly...I don't understand the cause of this discussion...
The description says "form and applications" and the video shows applications from the forms...

The sparring label was confusing some, so it's not bad to clear things like that up.

if you know how to fight, you don't need more than what's provided to figure out how/if to make it real.

People find it nice to see the people showcasing a skill using it realistically. Additionally, one attracts better students by attracting discerning students. There's many apps online that are not workable; since I like the internals, and enjoyed watching his stuff, I suggested he might make it clear he is above that group by including actual usage. There's really nothing wrong with doing so.

The videos are sufficient and exactly what they're labeled.

He changed the label based on the feedback from here, so it was good. Of course, sometimes miscommunications occur and arguing almost happens, but overall, there was no harm in the discussion.

Why judge a school on their free demo videos...do you give your best out for free?

Would I want the students who are attracted by less than that?

As far as gloves...you don't need gloves to punch realistically.

You need gloves to HIT realistically.

If there is no risk of being hit, then the punch isn't realistic.

If there is a chance of getting hit, but the hit is ineffective, then the punch still isn't right.

So, if the punch is effective enough to hit, and effective enough to damage(as a gongfu man punching should be able to), without gloves, this is going to be a short training session ending badly.

Students who punch each other without gloves as they are learning hold back, even the ones who don't think they are, often. If the idea is to train the technique, then gloves allow a greater guarantee that the strike coming out is effective.

[/quote]Mo Ling, you've shown patience and intelligence...more than I would and more than most of the people who get these responses do. Nice.[/QUOTE]

These responses? If I post footage here, I don't think I should be above critique, but I would value critiques attempting to be helpful far above someone agreeing but not adding anything to my own view on what drills we discussed. I have not posited that I am better than him, I suggested some ideas he could use or not, and took part in some discussion. As did a former semi-pro fighter with experience in the internals, and another internals sifu. There were some agreements and some disagreements, but mainly when it seemed, due to the limitations of text, that one or the other might have been thinking they were somehow above the rest.

[Mo Ling]

no, I don't - why would I? I am just engaging in analytic discourse with you - why would you get upset by that?
although your use of a borderline-pejorative moniker to address me and admonition to "take it easy" would suggest the possibility of some projection of defensiveness on your part, especially considering I have addressed you in nothing but a respectful manner throughout...

My point was that I was NOT upset, therefore you did not need to let me know not to get upset about critique. I have not been the least defensive, just standing behind my view and letting you all have your say. Regarding "fire chief", it's just a light joke phrase, means you were getting all serious as if to run off and put out a fire where there was not one. No reason to take offense.

your air fajing is very good! u destroy all those bad co2 molecules and stop global warming. u save world.

I am not trying to save the world, just occasionally one lost internet martial artist at a time.
Fajin, either one has the skill or not. Form is relaxed flexibility and recycling of power. Actual impact is a different thing altogether.

Dan,
Thanks for your understanding.

[Mo Ling]

The sparring label was confusing some, so it's not bad to clear things like that up...He changed the label based on the feedback from here, so it was good.

What might you be referring to?
Apparently you have made some mistake. Nothing in this thread, nor those videos on youtube has ever been labeled or even included the word "sparring". Nothing was edited nor changed. Please check your facts, the confusion is entirely yours.

[KC Elbows]

What might you be referring to?
Apparently you have made some mistake. Nothing in this thread, nor those videos on youtube has ever been labeled or even included the word "sparring". Nothing was edited nor changed. Please check your facts, the confusion is entirely yours.

Sorry, my mistake, two different conversations from two different threads.

As far as the attitude and needing Dan's "understanding", what use is understanding of the fact that people every bit as experienced as you are trying to give constructive feedback of something you shared, even if it occasionally has misunderstandings?

There's not a guy posting on here consistently with less than twenty years experience, yourself included.

I stand by the fact that your style deserves students who would not choose your style without seeing the full expression of the moves and the steps to get there, not people in awe of fundamental internal approaches.

[ShaolinDan]

Dear KC

I happen to have been studying writing for far longer than I have been studying kung fu.

In writing there is something called tone.
I suggest you reread posts for tone...sometimes it can be a bit subtle, but if you pay attention it is unmistakable.

Personally, as a reader who has no invested interest, I felt that Mo Ling (and many others who post here) was being attacked...and for no good reason.

Maybe I'm nuts, but that's my two cents for today.

(As far as the 'sparring' comment, I think you're confusing this with another thread.)

By the way, I like a lot of what you write on here, so please don't take me wrong...I just don't understand what's happening on this thread.

-ShaolinDan

Now, I'm going to class, so don't expect me to respond for a while.

[Mo Ling]

Sorry, my mistake, two different conversations from two different threads.

As far as the attitude and needing Dan's "understanding", what use is understanding of the fact that people every bit as experienced as you are trying to give constructive feedback of something you shared, even if it occasionally has misunderstandings?

There's not a guy posting on here consistently with less than twenty years experience, yourself included.

I stand by the fact that your style deserves students who would not choose your style without seeing the full expression of the moves and the steps to get there, not people in awe of fundamental internal approaches.

You seem to be looking to create a conflict where there is none.
You've just decided that I 'needed' someone's understanding simply because they offered it? I simply thanked him for it, where does the need come to exist?

He apparently understands something about the nature of, or reasons for the presentation in these videos (not talking about skill, just presentation or context) that you may not, at least judging by your viewpoint. What I do know is that you are inventing this supposed need on my part. If I needed that I would not have posted anything here. I am equally equipped to stand behind my viewpoints and simply acknowledged another's understanding of the situation. You do not need to take the extra step of inventing feelings and needs.

Stand by all the opinions (fact is not automatically attributed to your views either) that you like. There is not a single video of Chen Taijiquan in existence that I know of wherein someone is demonstrating the 'full expression of the moves and the steps to get there", yet the style continues to attract students. I have to say that while your viewpoint or desire may be worthy of consideration, it is not aligned with, nor has much influence on the reality of the situation for those who are actually interested in this system. In reality, most teachers will not show the full anything or the steps to get there without a long term educational and financial commitment on the part of a student. I am no different. I am not convinced that I owe the anonymous public anything at all.

Regarding "...people in awe of fundamental internal approaches..." again I am not sure what you are referring to. The approaches I am showing are not exactly fundamental, they are a bit more complicated than that. Secondly, they are missing big chunks or necessary fundamental material, by decision. And thirdly, again you invent a state of affairs in which myself or someone suggest that anyone should be in awe of anything.

If you are not in awe, then you are not. If you are then you are. I made no suggestion either way, however it is still very clear that almost none of these types of methods, fundamental or complex are visible on anyone's Chen Taijiquan videos at all. That is not something be in awe of, it is just reality as far as I know. Again if you or anyone knows otherwise, you'd have pointed us in that direction a page or two ago.

That is a reality until someone proves otherwise. These videos, like them or not, show more related to actual martial application (non-tuishou) than the great majority of Chen Taijiquan videos I have ever seen. Request or demands to show or explain more don't really move me, but as always thanks for contributing to a discussion.

[KC Elbows]

Dear KC

I happen to have been studying writing for far longer than I have been studying kung fu.

In writing there is something called tone.
I suggest you reread posts for tone...sometimes it can be a bit subtle, but if you pay attention it is unmistakable.

Personally, as a reader who has no invested interest, I felt that Mo Ling (and many others who post here) was being attacked...and for no good reason.

Sanjuro Ronin's initial post was strong, I know that, but I think a lot of experienced and good internals folk feel that we should keep an open dialog, and that even our own stuff should be open to criticism, not to destroy that stuff, but to improve what comes next from each of us.


Past that, I can detect tone in each of the people posting on this thread, myself occasionally included. None stick with the tone in the long run so far, so how important can it be?

(As far as the 'sparring' comment, I think you're confusing this with another thread.)

Yes, I realized that. Funny thing, the internet.

By the way, I like a lot of what you write on here, so please don't take me wrong...I just don't understand what's happening on this thread.

This is fairly tame. It's true that, put something up, and others have their right to critique it. I think here it is also paired with the feeling that, if the qualified do not put their best game forward, those styles will not carry forward, and that would be a shame. I will eventually be putting vids up here, and I would expect no less than what Sanjuro Ronin or Mo Ling or TGY provided here.

All of us have made some remarks that verged on risking a tone, but this must be less important than the systems and their cultivation. There is merit to many of these comments, so their discussion is more important than each of our positions as sifus or experts or what have you, imo. We should be respected sifus because our ideas and skills, not our reputations, are respectable. When I post some clips, I sincerely hope Mo Ling provides open and frank feedback.

[taai gihk yahn]

My point was that I was NOT upset, therefore you did not need to let me know not to get upset about critique. I have not been the least defensive, just standing behind my view and letting you all have your say. Regarding "fire chief", it's just a light joke phrase, means you were getting all serious as if to run off and put out a fire where there was not one. No reason to take offense.

ok; gotcha; none taken

addendum: as for your other points about not wanting / needing, etc. - hey, that's all cool - no one is projecting anything onto you; whether you take anything anyone says to heart is, of course, your prerogative; obviously u r aware that when u submit something to the public square, it will get chewed up, bandied about, etc., etc.; overall, i think that the reception here is positive, which could actualy explain the "requests" for seeing things in another context - if it was negative, it would just b dismissive;

anyway, that's as may be; regards;

[taai gihk yahn]

Dear KC

I happen to have been studying writing for far longer than I have been studying kung fu.

In writing there is something called tone.
I suggest you reread posts for tone...sometimes it can be a bit subtle, but if you pay attention it is unmistakable.

Personally, as a reader who has no invested interest, I felt that Mo Ling (and many others who post here) was being attacked...and for no good reason.

Maybe I'm nuts, but that's my two cents for today.

(As far as the 'sparring' comment, I think you're confusing this with another thread.)

By the way, I like a lot of what you write on here, so please don't take me wrong...I just don't understand what's happening on this thread.

-ShaolinDan

Now, I'm going to class, so don't expect me to respond for a while.

Dan

Mo Ling is not being attacked - if u think otherwise, go check out the thread on "sparring" that KC was confusing this one with - THAT is attacking;

as far as what's happening on this thread, what I THINK is the case is this: Mo Ling posted a clip that apparently several of us, independently, felt had intrinsic value; as such, the nature of our commentary was to basically suggest (in different ways) that he might consider putting up something showing what he does in a context other than what he was showing - this is not to cut him down, but in fact to give him the benefit of the doubt, in so far as saying that because there appears to be value in what he is doing, showing it in a more "live" (that word again!) context would be a useful component of his over all "argument";

I don't think anyone was condescending, overly critical or aggressive - in fact, I think the comments we made were generally supportive as opposed to dismissive;

and certainly it is his purview whether or not to provide additional footage; if he does, then that would be interesting to see and the dialogue can continue; if he doesn't, well, so be it;

I don't think anyone is making anything more of it than that...

[Mo Ling]

...if the qualified do not put their best game forward, those styles will not carry forward, and that would be a shame.

Before you get too deep into this area of discussion, please realize that I am not out to save the world, the Taijiquan world, the 'internal' world or any other world. I am not involved in that. I privately practice and run a very small traditional yet innovative school that teaches students who are willing to do the bitter work, period.

[KC Elbows]

Before you get too deep into this area of discussion, please realize that I am not out to save the world, the Taijiquan world, the 'internal' world or any other world. I am not involved in that. I privately practice and run a very small traditional yet innovative school that teaches students who are willing to do the bitter work, period.

I am the same. Being innovative, I will continue to suggest you use gloves and non-stationary footwork in a rational manner, because it will achieve what you are trying to do more effectively and teach the core faster.

[Mo Ling]

I am the same. Being innovative, I will continue to suggest you use gloves and non-stationary footwork in a rational manner, because it will achieve what you are trying to do more effectively and teach the core faster.

I believe you will notice that I especially did demonstrate non-stationary footwork in those videos. In fact my footwork is rather the focus of the video is it not? Stepping to create different positional dynamics is on display is it not? Yes the student steps less, but that is for a reason; to demonstrate what one may do to elicit action and disadvantage on the part of the opponent. Additionally, the student would have to already know the steps. I initially suggested he walk in one of the videos and then proceeded to demonstrate ways in which to walk and change the situation.

Again, I appreciate your input, but you are not only preaching to the choir, but suggesting things that are already present. You may simply not like the pace, the lack of aggression or whatever, but that is simply not going to change here. These videos exist as they do for a reason. It is not an accident. Again, as far as what is generally available in videos of traditional gongfu, this is already far beyond the norm.