Chen Taijiquan Various Form and Application Videos

[KC Elbows]

Before you get too deep into this area of discussion, please realize that I am not out to save the world, the Taijiquan world, the 'internal' world or any other world. I am not involved in that. I privately practice and run a very small traditional yet innovative school that teaches students who are willing to do the bitter work, period.

"In reality, most teachers will not show the full anything or the steps to get there without a long term educational and financial commitment on the part of a student. I am no different."

Given this, then how can you achieve this claim on your website?

" Due to the pronounced shortage of authentic Chinese gongfu in the western world, this site serves to preserve and share a dying and valuable art. Internal gongfu is a lifetime practice left to us by generations stretching back to pre-dynastic periods of Chinese history, and should not be lost due to reasons of profit or ego."

Showing the full deal cannot be stolen, and it's the only way students become true practitioners. Withholding that kills the art. The founders of these systems used every training tool of their era, and they would have used modern tools as well, had they existed back then.

[YouKnowWho]

the puncher always holds their hand out for a long time.

You can train your moves by waiting for your opponent to punch or kick at you. You then react to it. The problem is if he pulls his punch back too soon, you may not be able to train your move. If he pulls his punch back too late, it may not be realistic.

You can also train your moves by attacking first, when your opponent reacts, you then react to his reaction. The training will be more realistic IMO.

[KC Elbows]

I believe you will notice that I especially did demonstrate non-stationary footwork in those videos. In fact my footwork is rather the focus of the video is it not? Stepping to create different positional dynamics is on display is it not? Yes the student steps less, but that is for a reason; to demonstrate what one may do to elicit action and disadvantage on the part of the opponent. Additionally, the student would have to already know the steps. I initially suggested he walk in one of the videos and then proceeded to demonstrate ways in which to walk and change the situation.

Again, I appreciate your input, but you are not only preaching to the choir, but suggesting things that are already present. You may simply not like the pace, the lack of aggression or whatever, but that is simply not going to change here. These videos exist as they do for a reason. It is not an accident. Again, as far as what is generally available in videos of traditional gongfu, this is already far beyond the norm.

No, it isn't.

Additionally, you totally mistook what I meant by footwork. The person you are applying to is at a set distance from the start. You doing footwork on someone whose moves are preset and distance preset requires no distance skills or timing skills, both things that must be worked with the move.

If both players take a right lead, they can "stalk" each other in right lead in order to deny the defender total control of the distance, thus working distance skills. Since the attacker should also control the timing of attack, at this point the defender is now working distance and timing, blending with a real attack(assuming gloves), and thus having a chance of practicing the real technique, which can only exist with the attackers added energy.

This is not present in those videos. And what is present is gongfu lessons, but it is neither rare nor far beyond any norm in gongfu. In fact, it's fairly typical application training, which, on it's own, teaches theory and cannot impart usage.

[Mo Ling]

Given this, then how can you achieve this claim on your website?

" Due to the pronounced shortage of authentic Chinese gongfu in the western world, this site serves to preserve and share a dying and valuable art. Internal gongfu is a lifetime practice left to us by generations stretching back to pre-dynastic periods of Chinese history, and should not be lost due to reasons of profit or ego."

Showing the full deal cannot be stolen, and it's the only way students become true practitioners. Withholding that kills the art. The founders of these systems used every training tool of their era, and they would have used modern tools as well, had they existed back then.

Firstly, I made the site many years ago.
Secondly, again you seek non-existent conflict. I AM preserving this art, by practicing it and teaching it authentically, in person. I do not need to teach it, for free over the internet to anonymous IP addresses as a preservational service to the world of internet gongfu.

Thirdly, showing the full deal can not only not be stolen, it cannot even be learned. Who are you assuming I am withholding this "full deal" from? Who are you deciding I am abligated to show this "full deal" to in order to qualify as Taijiquan preservationist of the year?

[Mo Ling]

...And what is present is gongfu lessons, but it is neither rare nor far beyond any norm in gongfu. In fact, it's fairly typical application training, which, on it's own, teaches theory and cannot impart usage.

I really do get this by now. These 'lessons' videos are not what you want, and I, or someone, should feel that what you want is more important than what we want.

Additionally, the methods shown in the 'lessons videos' are not at all rare, even though no one on this thread, including yourself can point anyone towards any other examples of punch and parry method lessons in Chen Taijiquan.

Not trying to be clever here, but very clearly, you are saying, you want something else, and this, which you do not have other examples of, is very plentiful. I get this. I don't give it creedence, but I do get it, so repeating it would be.. redundant at best.

Perhaps you just don't see this, but it reads very clear here to me.

[KC Elbows]

You forgot about me wanting you to use gloves so that there's less compliance, don't forget that part.

Seriously, if you're claiming that these are novel because of punching being present, and there is a less than realistic aspect to the punching, you're going to draw some criticism.

[Mo Ling]

You forgot about me wanting you to use gloves so that there's less compliance, don't forget that part.

Seriously, if you're claiming that these are novel because of punching being present, and there is a less than realistic aspect to the punching, you're going to draw some criticism.

I am stating that these methods are rare to see at all in Chen Taijiquan.
If you know what I am (or you are) talking about on this count (which is now quite in doubt due to your repeated inability to address the question) than we would have contrary evidence from you already, but we do not. Unless you have something beyond an imaginary insistence that these are commonly seen, there is simply no point to argue that point. Don't you agree, or are you simply a fan of wasting words that have no support? I have never been afraid of criticism, but less so of the uninformed type.

Regarding 'how to punch' realistically. No problem, that is another subject and is also not the point of the videos. As I said, cannot satisfy everyone, and less so, those looking for conflict on the net.

[taai gihk yahn]

no one on this thread, including yourself can point anyone towards any other examples of punch and parry method lessons in Chen Taijiquan.

um, well...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEbupVWZ6mk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2WPQJ...eature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9r5aCPeaoiQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MZ1OO...eature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wu0KAbPZ6Ms
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a7pTe...eature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nIpU6...eature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UYjG3...eature=related

[taai gihk yahn]

I really do get this by now. These 'lessons' videos are not what you want, and I, or someone, should feel that what you want is more important than what we want.

dude, enough with that already - you are the one setting up an adversarial tone by constantly projecting on what you THINK others "want", and to contextualize it by saying that KC or others feel that what they want is more important than what you want is just being really piszy;

you are starting to act in a most jejune manner, which is pretty untoward given that everyone here has been rather respectful towards you; even when other concede a point to you, you demonstrate a significant lack of graciousness; which is certainly your prerogative, but man, get over yourself - what you are showing isn't all that big of a deal, despite what you may think about it (as I believe my previous post demonstrated)

apparently, your m.o. is to act like a spoiled child when others proffer opinions contrary to yours;

good luck with all that

[taai gihk yahn]

You forgot about me wanting you to use gloves so that there's less compliance, don't forget that part.

Seriously, if you're claiming that these are novel because of punching being present, and there is a less than realistic aspect to the punching, you're going to draw some criticism.

dude, forget it; he's obviously got some interpersonal issues that preclude his participation in reasoned discourse, which he couches in some sort of bizarre persecution complex;

he's posted what he's posted, he's obviously not interested in other people's opinions when they differ from his, and his posts demonstrate a concerted passive-aggressive lean that nullifies any hope of composed exchange;

move on to more fertile fields

[Mo Ling]

regarding the links posted, well glad to see someone is dealing with punch and parry at least sort of.
Still don't not cover the territory I am looking for, but nice to see something.
I hope those satisfy your need to have the world saved better than mine did. That is a load of my shoulders.

Regarding the psychological critique, I'll pass on the session even if it free of charge. I feel I've been very nice to you folks, and will continue to be. However I am in no way obligated to post a video and then automatically submit to all of your requests, suggestions and what have you.. Just take a moment to realize that we all live our own lives. You don't owe me anything and that works in reverse as well. You may not get the response or external validation you want from someone whom you choose to critique on the net, that is just the way it is.

I posted the vids and said "please enjoy". I do not mind the discussion or the critique, but let's be honest in acknowledging at least that some of you folks are requesting of me some other kind of video.. I am making no requests of you. When you ask someone for something different than they have provided, then don't take no for an answer, that is an assertion that your desire for something different or additional should supplant the desire of the one declining to.

Simple enough. I don't have much interest in getting adversarial with you. If you want to keep it up on your own I cannot stop you.

[ShaolinDan]

Mo Ling, thanks for the videos. Actually used a technique from them tonight to escape a chin na.

I just do a touch of chen on the side and have not been taught any apps. It's nice to see some...no matter how they're presented.

I'm done with this 'conversation,' shame it couldn't have been a thread on apps from chen, that would have actually been interesting.

Peace.

[Scott R. Brown]

Hmmm....well as very basic training vids showing very basic principles I think they were okay.

One of the problems I have with training demonstrations and even training in many classes is the way people strike and the footwork. These never reflect real life encounters. Instructors tend to have their students attack using stylized strikes and body moments reflective of the principles of that specific martial art and not reflective what one would encounter in a real fight.

I understand the need for some formalized movement in order to learn basic principles, but I think many students and especially instructors do not recognize the blind adherence to stylized actions reflective of the principles of their style and that these are not reflective of the real world.

An example to further illustrate my point:

Years ago I trained for a short period of time at a local Aiki-jujutsu school. This was after attending Aikido classes for a number of years. The Aiki-jujutsu school was very traditional in their method of teaching classes. There was no student to student interaction allowed and no questions allowed if one did not understand the manner of executing a technique. They wanted students to learn by doing. Observe the technique as demonstrated and basically figure it out as you went.

For a period of time another student attended who had experience in Judo. During one particular class a specific technique was being practiced. None of the upper students nor the number two instructor, (the guy just under the master and who had trained in the art for 20 years) could throw this guy using the chosen technique. This guy was basically being a jerk and playing with them. He didn’t even really know what he was doing to mess with the instructors; he just knew he could stop them from executing the technique. You could see these instructors baffled by why they couldn’t throw the guy. This guy could execute the technique on them, but they could not execute the technique on him.

After watching all this go on for some time, I decided to mess with the guy myself and not allow him to execute the technique on me either. Now he was the one baffled! I was amused by all of this because the only reason no one could perform the technique was because the technique would only work with the feet placed in a specific configuration. That is, the technique worked according to a stylized form of attack. Change something enough, the fixed style, and the technique didn’t work. In this particular case the change was in the footwork.

The mere changing of the footwork neutralized the technique and no one recognized this; not the advanced students, not the instructors, including the master, and not even the guy messing with them. Since there was no discussion allowed in the class I could not tell them this simple explanation for their failures. It was a completely ridiculous episode, but one that illustrated plainly the problems with some or most MA classes.

The stylized forms of attack used for teaching purposes create a generally unrecognized flaw in training. They do not accurately reflect the chaotic nature of real life encounters, the intensity of real life encounters or the swiftness of real life encounters. So questions are created within a real life encounters about why something is not working as it worked in class. In many cases it is because the right foot was THERE instead of HERE, or they struck in this manner, instead of that manner when this foot was where it was supposed to be, or etc.

A partner KNOWS the technique to be performed. He also KNOWS how to react to it in a manner in which he will not be injured. In the real world this will not happen. A real bad guy is unlikely to react in any manner a trained person can anticipate unless he has some real life encounters or has at least observed a number of real life encounters and analyzed the actions of both parties.

How does all this apply to the presented videos?

While a student must learn the basics in a formal and of necessity, stylized, manner, it must be recognized that these formal and stylized actions create patterns of action that do not reflect what is most likely to be experienced within real life encounters. These videos demonstrate stylized actions and responses to those stylized actions. They can be used to learn and demonstrate principles of movement, but should not be confused with actual real life possibilities. Just because someone can effectively perform specific techniques against stylized and well anticipated attacks does not mean the techniques AS LEARNED will be effective in real life encounters.

So, because the vids demonstrate the application of basic principles, they should be viewed according to this context and viewers should avoid projecting any greater value onto them than this.

[tiaji1983]

Very good post Scott!


Thats why no 1 movement can only have 1 application, and why every movement has a counter, and every movement should be examined individually. If you examine them correctly, you can find applications and counters in different situations. Small changes like the type of attack used, the different types of resistance and footwork, and the size/speed/strength/ability of the opponent can make a huge difference to how the technique must be applied. Thats why I say these videos are good to give ideas to applications, but they should not be seen as THE applications.

[sanjuro_ronin]

You can train your moves by waiting for your opponent to punch or kick at you. You then react to it. The problem is if he pulls his punch back too soon, you may not be able to train your move. If he pulls his punch back too late, it may not be realistic.

You can also train your moves by attacking first, when your opponent reacts, you then react to his reaction. The training will be more realistic IMO.

Quoted for the truth.