Chen Taijiquan Various Form and Application Videos

[sanjuro_ronin]

I have always believed that demo's of techniques should show how the technique is done, its principles and such and not really bother to show it applied VS A,B or C.
BUT, if one is going to show an application then it should be done as realistically as possible:
See it taught, see it fought.

[Scott R. Brown]

See it taught, see it fought.

Hey......did anyone notice that rhymes?

But unfortunately I cannot understand such a simple ditty without a semi-graphic illustration accompanying it!!

Hint.....hint.....hint......hint!!!!


Did I mention HINT?

[Mo Ling]

Starts to look like the debate comes full circle:

Applications should be trained against attacks that will happen.
But Different types of attacks will happen.
And, different applications may be used against them.

So, again eventually one must chose one type of attack and then one type of application to train against it, because one must start with and work on at least something in a focused way in order to learn.

One cannot train everything to learn everything. One must train something to learn everything. These videos are examples of training SOMETHING, not everything.

[Scott R. Brown]

Actually, the best way to train is to learn basic skills and underlying principles. With a comprehensive understanding of both any martial artist can create and adapt on their own according to the circumstance. What is important is not to get caught up in specific techniques. This is the blind adherence of which I spoke above.

It is not specific techniques that are important, but the underlying principles that specific techniques express that are important. If you understand the principles involved you can spontaneously adapt your techniques according to each circumstance as required.

[Mo Ling]

That is a very old debate of course.
I am a big fan of 'underlying principles' but they alone cannot be used to attain the actual practical method. There are a very good number of actual techniques in Chen Taijiquan that not only are very practically functional, but also translate those very 'underlying principles' into something tangible. If you have no way to translate those principles into functional reality, well you will have to just invent the action yourself. That may sound real nice for maybe some varieties of Yang style or perhaps some factions of Yiquan, but if you want to learn actual Chen gongfu for example, then you would want to actually not just invent it all yourself. There is actually a curriculum in existance for this art, it is very old.

Chen Taijiquan is not a system simply of 'principles' that are open to your enterpretation completely. It is a system of functional martial art methods that abide by and put into action certain principles, in certain ways. If everyone could just learn the principles and then invent how to bring them into tangible reality, well there would be no need for long term training. A simple thorough reading of a book or one or two sessions with a teacher and then off to creating your own masterpiece in a few weeks!

There is of course a level at which improvisatory infinite creation of application/action is reached. This is based on a solid knowledge of the basic curriculum. The solid knowledge of the application curriculum provides the physical understanding to begin to use this flavor and method of gongfu to create application. This is essentially the 'underlying principles' of Chen Taijiquan: a physical understanding one gets, not from words.

Chen Taijiquan is a very detailed path, that has been pretty well charted with actual technical applications that work in particular ways, not just vague adherence to worded principles.

[Dragonzbane76]

I think the biggest thing you could have shown in the vid. was full speed application, I know you were just showing the general premise and break down of the tech. but these days a red flag given is the 2 step outreaching punches on a compliant individuals.

In all honesty you could have done both... show the break down and then show in full speed. Not much more to show both in conjunction.

as for the gloves... I think everyone should use, and apply them into training. The thought of them just being used in "sport" context is a false thought. they are a tool that should be implemented and used.

[KC Elbows]

At the same time, a lot of openings for applications in some varieties of Chen are provided by the principals. Transitioning in a bowed manner, in at least one branch, is the underlying principal that allows for a number of throws and takedowns, as the low end of the bow puts the dan tian under the opponents if need be. Opening and closing actions allow footworks to be quicker by making them effortless, etc.

That said, I also feel that ingraining the specific usage is of benefit, and can be a good way to ingrain the principals. However, this works best the closer one is to the actual specific usage, and can entrench bad habits the further from the specific usage the training is. Students need the teacher to show them that the technique is so effective that, if the teacher does not counter, even he will fall before it, imo.

[KC Elbows]

I think the biggest thing you could have shown in the vid. was full speed application, I know you were just showing the general premise and break down of the tech. but these days a red flag given is the 2 step outreaching punches on a compliant individuals.

In all honesty you could have done both... show the break down and then show in full speed. Not much more to show both in conjunction.

as for the gloves... I think everyone should use, and apply them into training. The thought of them just being used in "sport" context is a false thought. they are a tool that should be implemented and used.

You love poking things with sticks, don't you?

[YouKnowWho]

Applications should be trained against attacks that will happen.

A police will need to learn how to put a handcuff on bad guy and not how to take off handcuff. A bank robbery will need to know how to rob bank and not how to stop bank robbery. Application should also be trained "how to attack".

[Dragonzbane76]

You love poking things with sticks, don't you?

eh just throwing my 2 cents and a 1/2 in there. A lot of what i wanted to state had already been stated... didn't want to sound like a totally broken record.

If you put it up expect crit. on it. Take it or leave it in my book.

[KC Elbows]

eh just throwing my 2 cents and a 1/2 in there. A lot of what i wanted to state had already been stated... didn't want to sound like a totally broken record.

If you put it up expect crit. on it. Take it or leave it in my book.

I was just kidding you. But you did bring up a good point that wasn't mentioned(oversight on my part, as it was the reason I first posted)- these kinds of demos do tend to be a red flag, and I thought the guy should know that, just by going a little further, it would let people know that wasn't the case.

[Mo Ling]

I was just kidding you. But you did bring up a good point that wasn't mentioned(oversight on my part, as it was the reason I first posted)- these kinds of demos do tend to be a red flag, and I thought the guy should know that, just by going a little further, it would let people know that wasn't the case.

You guys assume a LOT, and this is a problem found exclusively on the internet. Just as you state that 'red flags' may come up due to some sort of demonstration video, there are also red flags that comments can bring up which reveal just how far down the well of internet frog in the well one may become.

The very important bit that you seem to have lost sight of is that the only people who see 'red flags' from slow demonstrations that do not feature 'real' attacks are people who spend their time frequently on internet martial arts forums. People like this get the habit to judge and critique anything on video based on criteria that relates only to this particular internet world.

Not to say that these supposed 'red flags' might be valid in some cases, but the point is that valid or not, mostly your red flag matters to no one but you. In the real world, where people might actually be looking to train gongfu with a real person who is local to them, long term (the only way it can be learned), the red flag you refer to will not often exist. Mostly, if you show applications it will scare people off who think they want to learn 'Tai Chi'. If people really do want to learn Taijiquan martial art they would be lucky to find any authentic applications at all. Mostly what they will find available will be kickboxing or longfist methods dressed in white silk. If someone is discerning enough to have an idea what the actual Chen Taijiquan applications are then they would be lucky to happen upon our school.

The 'red flag' you folks are referring to really applies to people watching a video clip to see whether or not it contains the 'real thing' to help them decide whether or not to purchase an instructional video, or attend a 'fighting' seminar. This is for people who are not able or interested in training with said teacher on a daily long term basis, and/or would like to learn over the net or on a video.

Since I am not offering any of those things, this virtual red flag that may arise because my video clip does not show what someone who has no interest or likelihood of ever visiting my school might want, simply does not matter.

That is your internet martial art red flag, matters to the internet. The actual in the flesh student is a totally different situation.

[KC Elbows]

You guys assume a LOT, and this is a problem found exclusively on the internet. Just as you state that 'red flags' may come up due to some sort of demonstration video, there are also red flags that comments can bring up which reveal just how far down the well of internet frog in the well one may become.

The very important bit that you seem to have lost sight of is that the only people who see 'red flags' from slow demonstrations that do not feature 'real' attacks are people who spend their time frequently on internet martial arts forums. People like this get the habit to judge and critique anything on video based on criteria that relates only to this particular internet world.

Not to say that these supposed 'red flags' might be valid in some cases, but the point is that valid or not, mostly your red flag matters to no one but you. In the real world, where people might actually be looking to train gongfu with a real person who is local to them, long term (the only way it can be learned), the red flag you refer to will not often exist. Mostly, if you show applications it will scare people off who think they want to learn 'Tai Chi'. If people really do want to learn Taijiquan martial art they would be lucky to find any authentic applications at all. Mostly what they will find available will be kickboxing or longfist methods dressed in white silk. If someone is discerning enough to have an idea what the actual Chen Taijiquan applications are then they would be lucky to happen upon our school.

The 'red flag' you folks are referring to really applies to people watching a video clip to see whether or not it contains the 'real thing' to help them decide whether or not to purchase an instructional video, or attend a 'fighting' seminar. This is for people who are not able or interested in training with said teacher on a daily long term basis, and/or would like to learn over the net or on a video.

Since I am not offering any of those things, this virtual red flag that may arise because my video clip does not show what someone who has no interest or likelihood of ever visiting my school might want, simply does not matter.

That is your internet martial art red flag, matters to the internet. The actual in the flesh student is a totally different situation.

Ease up, Fire Chief!

Perhaps Skokie is different, been awhile since I was there.

In most urban areas, more and more people do some research before joining a school, and are hesitant to throw their money into classes based on compliant demos.

I've also seen this happen in my stays in China.

[Mo Ling]

I generally don't take anyone seriously and don't care at all if they cannot actually meet me in person. If they cannot actually visit a class and a teacher to check out a school then they are basically..scared. I am not selling anything so the video is just for fun and interest. If someone is potentially interested in training but must see everything on video first before even being willing to meet someone, I am actually not at all interested in teaching them. These people are simply time wasters to me. Maybe it is a generational thing, but I am just not interested in living in a totally virtual world.

Gongfu is a physical art. If you cannot deal with it in the physical world we can simply ignore, it is not a loss.

[KC Elbows]

Yet you have videos on your website for potential students to peruse. But you don't care about the sort of students who would make the informed decision of perusing them before spending their time visiting your school?

Interesting.