Page 4 of 4 FirstFirst ... 234
Results 46 to 54 of 54

Thread: Muscle lab: Bulk up with the science of bodybuilding

  1. #46
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Earth
    Posts
    4,381
    Part 2...........................

    after 3 wk of training, the vo2 max had increased significantly by 5+-3ml.kg/min. It tended to increase in the last part of the training period but no significant changes [emphasis mine] were observed.

    Basically, the tabata group improved for 3 weeks and then plateaued despite a continuingly increasing workload. I’d note that anaerobic capacity did improve over the length of the study although most of the benefit came in the first 4 weeks of the study (with far less over the last 2 weeks).




    My comments

    first and foremost, there’s no doubt that while the steady state group only improved vo2 max, it did not improve anaerobic capacity; this is no shock based on the training effect to be expected. And while the tabata protocol certainly improved both, not only did the tabata group still end up with a lower vo2 at the end of the study, they only made progress for 3 weeks before plateauing on vo2 max and 4 weeks for anaerobic capacity.

    Interestingly, the running coach arthur lydiard made this observation half a century ago; after months of base training, he found that only 3 weeks of interval work were necessary to sharpen his athletes. More than that was neither necessary nor desirable. Other studies using cycling have found similar results: Intervals improve certain parameters of athletic performance for about 3 weeks or 6 sessions and then they stop having any further benefit.

    I’ve asked this question before but for all of the ‘all interval all the time’ folks, if intervals stop working after 3-4 weeks, what are people supposed to do for the other 48-49 weeks of the year. Should they keep busting their nuts with supra-maximal interval training for no meaningful results?

    On that note, it’s worth mentioning that the tabata group actually did a single steady state workout per week. Is it at all possible that this contributed to the overall training effect (given that 70% vo2 max training improved vo2 max in the steady state only group)? Does anybody else find it weird that the tabata promoters ignore the fact that the tabata group was doing steady state work too?

    It’s also relevant to note that the study used a bike for training. This is important and here’s why: On a stationary bike, when you start to get exhausted and fall apart from fatigue, the worst that happens is that you stop pedalling. You don’t fall off, you don’t get hurt, nothing bad happens. The folks suggesting high skill movements for a ‘tabata’ workout might want to consider that. Because when form goes bad on cleans near the end of the ‘tabata’ workout, some really bad things can happen. Things that don’t happen on a stationary bike.

    As well, i want to make a related comment: As you can see above the protocol used was very specific. The interval group used 170% of vo2 max for the high intensity bits and the wattage was increased by a specific amount when the workout was completed. Let me put this into real world perspective.

    My vo2 max occurs somewhere between 300-330watts on my power bike, i can usually handle that for repeat sets of 3 minutes and maybe 1 all out-set of 5-8 minutes if i’m willing to really suffer. That’s how hard it is, it’s a maximal effort across that time span.

    For a proper tabata workout, 170% of that wattage would be 510 watts (for perspective, tour de france cyclists may maintain 400 watts for an hour). This is an absolutely grueling workload. I suspect that most reading this, unless they are a trained cyclist, couldn’t turn the pedals at that wattage, that’s how much resistance there is.

    If you don’t believe me, find someone with a bike with a powermeter and see how much effort it takes to generate that kind of power output. Now do it for 20 seconds. Now repeat that 8 times with a 10 second break. You might learn something about what a tabata workout actually is.

    My point is that to get the benefits of the tabata protocol, the workload has to be that supra-maximal for it to be effective. Doing thrusters or kb swings or front squats with 65 lbs fo 20 seconds doesn’t generate nearly the workload that was used during the actual study. Nor will it generate the benefits (which i’d note again stop accruing after a mere 3 weeks). You can call them tabatas all you want but they assuredly aren’t.

    Finally, i’d note that, as i discussed in predictors of endurance performance vo2 max is only one of many components of overall performance, and it’s not even the most important one. Of more relevance here, vo2 max and aerobic endurance are not at all synonymous, many people confuse the two because they don’t understand the difference between aerobic power (vo2 max) and aerobic capacity (determined primarily by enzyme activity and mitochondrial density within the muscle). Other studies have shown clearly that interval work and steady state work generate different results in this regards, intervals improve vo2 max but can actually decrease aerobic enzyme activity (citrate synthase) within skeletal muscle.

    The basic point being that even if the tabata group improved vo2 max and anaerobic capacity to a greater degree than the steady state group, those are not the only parameters of relevance for overall performance.




    Summing up

    first, here’s what i’m not saying. I’m not anti-interval training, i’m not anti-high intensity training. I am anti-this stupid-assed idea that the only type of training anyone should ever do is interval training, based on people’s mis-understanding and mis-extrapolation of papers like this.

    High-intensity interval training and the tabata protocol specifically are one tool in the toolbox but anybody proclaiming that intervals can do everything that anyone ever needs to do is cracked. That’s on top of the fact that 99% of people who claim to be doing ‘tabatas’ aren’t doing anything of the sort.

    Because 8 sets of 20″ hard/10″ easy is not the tabata protocol and body-weight stuff or the other stuff that is often suggested simply cannot achieve the workload of 170% vo2 max that this study used. It may be challenging and such but the tabata protocol it ain’t

  2. #47
    Join Date
    Jan 1970
    Location
    Norfair
    Posts
    9,109
    Quote Originally Posted by Frost View Post
    long slow distance training, usually running but also used can to refer to any type of relatively easy stedy state cardio work
    thank you sir.
    "If you like metal you're my friend" -- Manowar

    "I am the cosmic storms, I am the tiny worms" -- Dimmu Borgir

    <BombScare> i beat the internet
    <BombScare> the end guy is hard.

  3. #48
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Ontario
    Posts
    22,250
    Thanks for that review Frost,
    I noticed that the fat burning properties were not mentioned though...
    He is totally right though, it (HIIT) is but ONE of MANY tools are are disposal.

    People tend to fall in the this or that category, they tend to NOT see the value of something outside what they are doing at the time.
    Trends tend to dictate to people.

    HIT as a weight training protocol works very well, but is much maligned.
    It works just as well as the 5x5 and the 3x10 and the list goes on.

    The fact is the vast majority of people just grab onto a trend and don't really understand or apply it well enough to work.

    Case in point, I have seen MANY try HIT and HIIT and I can count on one hand how many actually go to failure in HIT and how many truly push it to the max on HIIT.

    Fact is, for 3-6 weeks everything works and then your body adapts.

    Here is the thing though, when done correctly HIT and HIIT can get you the same or even better results in the same time period, BUT you are spending LESS time actually working out.

    Yes you plateau, just like every other system/protocol and yes, in many cases since you are pushing it more, you plateau sooner.

    So you just have to switch things up more and than is NOT a bad thing.
    Psalms 144:1
    Praise be my Lord my Rock,
    He trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle !

  4. #49
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Earth
    Posts
    4,381
    Quote Originally Posted by sanjuro_ronin View Post
    Thanks for that review Frost,
    I noticed that the fat burning properties were not mentioned though...
    He is totally right though, it (HIIT) is but ONE of MANY tools are are disposal.

    People tend to fall in the this or that category, they tend to NOT see the value of something outside what they are doing at the time.
    Trends tend to dictate to people.

    HIT as a weight training protocol works very well, but is much maligned.
    It works just as well as the 5x5 and the 3x10 and the list goes on.

    The fact is the vast majority of people just grab onto a trend and don't really understand or apply it well enough to work.

    Case in point, I have seen MANY try HIT and HIIT and I can count on one hand how many actually go to failure in HIT and how many truly push it to the max on HIIT.

    Fact is, for 3-6 weeks everything works and then your body adapts.

    Here is the thing though, when done correctly HIT and HIIT can get you the same or even better results in the same time period, BUT you are spending LESS time actually working out.

    Yes you plateau, just like every other system/protocol and yes, in many cases since you are pushing it more, you plateau sooner.

    So you just have to switch things up more and than is NOT a bad thing.
    i dont think the tabata talked about the weight loss properites of the study, but i dont care what fat burning properties it has post workout, a workout that lasts only 4 minutes will not have the same effect as a 45min cardio session

    As for having the same effect it all depends on what effect you are looking to have, Intervals thicken the muscle and the fibres of the heart, but if you are looking to increase the hearts size (especially the left ventrical) and thus decrease your resting HR and increase your hearts ability to pump blood around the body then HITT wont do this you need to put the time in on steady state work work,

    Another thing the study does not talk about is that the intervals, whilst having a quicker effect not only peak quicker than aerobic work they also not last as longer, this has been pointed out in other studies.

  5. #50
    any more on tabata would be most welcome... and if anyone can actually post the original study in english, that would be awesome and much apreciated... frost isnt the first person ive heard say "u need to read the whole original study" but nobody seems to have a copy of it... honestly, i cant find a copy... ive tried all the resources at my disposal but its proving inadequate... so anyone with the whole study, it would be great if you could post it up... all i can find are articles and opinion pieces... ive seen med journal opinions, magazine opinions, health sites opinions but thats about it as far as quality info on tabatas study goes...


    i'll take a japanese copy if thats all that i can get... i can work with that...


    FROST:
    are you a med student???

  6. #51
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Earth
    Posts
    4,381
    nope just someone with a great interest in training (i did tabata for years always wondering why pro athletes didnt do this and still did steady state work etc)

    the problem is the full text is only on pub med which is a paid for site, i used to have a pdf version but cant find it, ill see if i can get it again, but lyles recap covers most things, it shows what the study originally set out to do (find the effect of 2 types of training on VO2 levels) , how it did it the programme it used and the outcome. Theres not much more really to it

  7. #52
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Ontario
    Posts
    22,250
    Here is a interesting view on intervals:
    http://www.cbass.com/INTERVAL.HTM
    Psalms 144:1
    Praise be my Lord my Rock,
    He trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle !

  8. #53
    what exact date did he start the study? and finish?

  9. #54
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Earth
    Posts
    4,381
    it was done and published in 1996, dont know the exact dates of hand sorry will look later

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •