Muscle lab: Bulk up with the science of bodybuilding

[Dragonzbane76]

- 99% of clients are not serious about their goals, and just want to know how many crunches they need to do to lose their belly fat. And after you explain to them why crunches won't help with that, they ask "so is 200 per day enough?" Or "oh, I don't want to lift weights because I don't want to get big." lol! Listen lady, I've been trying to get big for 10 years. It's not as easy as you think it is

yep... most people don't understand the dedication and pain you have to go through to get what you want. When you try and explain that it's not an exact number of things, you can't put a definitive on it, they can't understand. haha I've tried explain the exact same thing your talking about (crunches/situps) to people that it doesn't make you bells flat.... they don't understand that actually it will probably make it look bigger, and that diet is one of the major deciding factors in weight loss.

[Scott R. Brown]

I am finishing my exercise science degree soon the main thing I have learned for gains is that muscle rebuilds after being broken down. There is a point you can break it down to much but time under tension is the big factor for muscle to be broken down to rebuild back up further. So basically more time under under tension the more break down the more adaption after wards. Also a power lifter takes a longer break because they are aiming to lift heavy and need time to get a complete recovery or as close to complete recovery as possible to lift the heavy weight again. Lifting weight is not just lifting weight it`s a specific thing for what you want to achieve and different people may also be affected greater or less from one type of training then a other person. Ps does anyone have a link to the actual study not the article about it? (maybe i missed the link)

Good points viper, time under tension for muscle growth is 30-70 seconds. The longer rest for heavy lifting is to allow the nervous system to recover more than the muscles.

[viper]

Scotty you are 100% correct amazes me the amount of people guys mainly that assume big muscles equals big strength not realizing the cns is a massive contributor to strength and speed.

[Scott R. Brown]

Scotty you are 100% correct amazes me the amount of people guys mainly that assume big muscles equals big strength not realizing the cns is a massive contributor to strength and speed.

I've seen guys who look like total wimps bench 315# easy. In over 30 yrs of lifting I've never benched 315#, now I've never cared to and have never worked towards it, but still.......

[IronFist]

Scotty you are 100% correct amazes me the amount of people guys mainly that assume big muscles equals big strength not realizing the cns is a massive contributor to strength and speed.

Careful, TMA guys are going to misinterpret this as "yeah we don't have to lift weights because big muscles don't mean you're strong. I'm too deadly for the street! Qiblasts!!!"

And let's not forget that usually guys with big muscles are stronger. The average big guy is pretty strong. The average skinny guy is not usually secretly a powerlifter.

All else being equal a bigger muscle has more potential than a smaller muscle. This is why the absolute strongest people on the planet are heavyweights, although the smaller powerlifters are often stronger proportional to their bodyweight. The fact remains there are no 150 pound guys squatting 1,000 pounds.

Plus, bodybuilders tend to have more muscular endurance than PLers due to the nature of their training. Sure, a 150 pound powerlifter guy might bench 315 (which is awesome), but he won't be able to crank out as many reps as a 220 pound bodybuilder, regardless of how much weight is used.

I'm a pretty skinny guy with a fast metabolism. I remember the first time I started training like a powerlifter and I was finally able to bench 225. I was so excited!!! I weighed like 160 or something and I had been doing 5 reps or less for months to get to that point, and I could barely bench 135 x 10 anymore. My strength curve was so jacked and I had no endurance from all the low rep/long rest period/heavy weight powerlifting stuff.

To be honest I didn't really care, though. I was like 20 years old and was super pumped to be able to bench two plates on each side

[YouKnowWho]

There are MANY gyms across the nation which don't even have squat racks or deadlift platforms and don't allow O-lifts or d-lifts.

Last time I checked out all the gyms around my area (Shell Beach, Ca), I asked if they had heavy bag. The way they looked at me as if I came from another planet.

[Scott R. Brown]

Last time I checked out all the gyms around my area (Shell Beach, Ca), I asked if they had heavy bag. The way they looked at me as if I came from another planet.

Kennedy Fitness in Atascadero has a bag. Its not hanging from a secure spot for a serious bag user and I doubt it gets much use, but they do have one.

And let's not forget that usually guys with big muscles are stronger......

All good points, however, just because you were unable to bench 135x10 doesn't mean you couldn't have trained to do so. When I was younger I benched 200# for 2 sets of 5, but 150# for 5 sets of 10. Right now I. Am doing 3-5 reps in the am and 10 reps in the pm in 2 workouts a day. You get what you train for.

[viper]

Ironfist I am certainly not bashing on the fact that bigger muscles usually means stronger just the fact that most newbies to the iron game assume its all about muscle and seem to neglect the CNS. I think if you want to get stronger you have to lift or at least work at it and that wont happen unless you challenge the body to get stronger which is usually using weights.

[IronFist]

All good points, however, just because you were unable to bench 135x10 doesn't mean you couldn't have trained to do so.

I know, I was just giving an example of how you lose endurance if you focus exclusively on 1RM maximal strength.

[Syn7]

anyone here incorporate Tabata protocol into their strength and conditioning programs??? or anyone have an opinion on tabatas research??? i believe he was working at the national institute of fitness & sports in tokyo when he did this work, but dont quote me on that

[sanjuro_ronin]

anyone here incorporate Tabata protocol into their strength and conditioning programs??? or anyone have an opinion on tabatas research??? i believe he was working at the national institute of fitness & sports in tokyo when he did this work, but dont quote me on that

I do, though not the classical Tabata, It's hard to get up to that level of Vo2.
I do 2:1 ratios of course so I alternate between:
2 min with 1 min rest
1 min with 30 sec
30 sec with 15 sec
20 and 10.

Depending on what I am doing and in the mood for.
The thing about TRUE Tababat and not just typical HIIT, is that it is truly BALLS to the wall ! and if you CAN complete a cycle ( 8 sets) you are NOT doing it right.
Best way you can see it is that, classical Tabata would be:
RUnning as fast as possible, no Holding back at all, for 20 sec, then 10 sec rest and then doing it again another 7 times.
Yes, you are correct, you should NOT be able to actually do it, that is the point of HIIT, if you CAN finish a cycle ( there is only one) you are NOT doing it with enough intensity.
So how does this actually work for the best?

Well, the truth is that it is part of a larger cycle:
ex:
10 min of moderate pace, just to get the body warmed up
One cycle of Tabata to make you puke and cry like a little girl !!
10 min cool down at moderate pace.
Total time: 24 min.

Of course you can play with the warm up and cool down but never less than 5 min and never more than 10.
Keep it easy and moderate.

[Frost]

anyone here incorporate Tabata protocol into their strength and conditioning programs??? or anyone have an opinion on tabatas research??? i believe he was working at the national institute of fitness & sports in tokyo when he did this work, but dont quote me on that

yep i have an opinion on it lol ) firstly the study was done at a very high rpm rate, and was terminated when those taking part could no longer reach the required rpm, so it wasnt just balls to the wall it was very scientific

heres some stuff i wrote about it a while ago

He should also mention that the Tabata study is the most overblown study used in exercise, its proof that marketing works much better than science when it comes to selling products. I mean it’s hard as hell to do, but what exactly does it accomplish apart from making you puwk?

the original study he did only had 14 test subjects (how many scientific studies do you know with less than 15 people taking part) all relativity unfit, 7 did the protocol (plus 30 minutes a week of lsd work which is over looked) and the other group did lsd work for 6 weeks, then at the end they found that VO2 Max and anaerobic capacity were better improved by using anaerobic means then aerobic means, hardly ground breaking.

The group that used an anaerobic methods improved anaerobic capacity and the group that used a method that did not stress the anaerobic method did not (and there improvements in VO2 max happened mostly in the first 3 weeks, in the last three weeks they saw almost no improvements) whilst the aerobic groups VO2 max increased at a slower rate, it kept increasing and if the study group had continued for another 4 or 5 weeks would have probably surpassed that of the HIIT group. So HIIT training leads to greater immediate changes but tapers off and these changes are not very stable, no news there

Even using VO2 max as a measure of aerobic fitness is misleading, resting heart rate, heart rate recovery, heart rate at anaerobic threshold, and power output at anaerobic threshold are much better indicators of aerobic power and capacity and overall fitness.

I just think the study has been blown out of all proportion and it is used by people to bash steady state work and say all you need to do for aerobic and anaerobic training is 4 minutes of hard work, which I think distorts the study.

The first thing people tend to forget is that the HIIT group did one session of 30 minutes LSD work a week in addition to the intervals
Secondly to quote the study:

“Average VO2 max in group one was 52.9 (LSD group) in the second group it was 48.2 (HIIT Group)”

So the LSD group had a larger VO2 at the start, so they had a better aerobic system to begin with and would be less likely to see improvements in the 6 weeks


Also whilst the HIIT group saw good increases in VO2 mas in the first 3 weeks, in the second three weeks as tabata himself said “no significant changes were observed."

Whilst the LSD group saw smaller but steady increases over the whole 6 weeks.

So the study proved that HIIT causes better short term adaptations but they stall after a few weeks whilst LSD leads to slower but more steady progress

Also he only tested VO2 max for aerobic fitness, if Tabata had measured other variables such as changes in cardiac output and stroke volume, resting heart rate, anaerobic threshold, velocity at anaerobic threshold, etc. you would have got a different result

I also don’t like how people use tabata for bodyweight stuff, weights etc, the original study used the bike and subjects were very carefully monitored, once pedal speed dropped below a certain point the training was stopped as it was no longer considered beneficial, this is very different from simply trying to work as hard as you think you can doing burpees or running

Overall I think the study was useful but has been blown out of all proportion and used as an excuse not to do LSD work, threshold training or any other longer term aerobic training etc

[sanjuro_ronin]

Frost, like I mentioend on the thread you posted that info, you need to re-read the study, for one thing the individuals were NOT untrained, they were competitive rowers ( I f I recall correctly).
The rest I addressed in that thread too.
Fact is HIIT is ONE of many protocols that can be used it is not THE protocol.
One of the crucial elemets of the study was also how the subjects continued to "burn calories" even after they finished their routine because of the high level they bodies had been "jacked" up to.

Fact is anyone that has done this and done it correctly sees the changes quite quickly, the problem is it can't be sustained, just like any other HIT protocol, it is good for about 4-6 weeks and then you need to switch it up.

[Scott R. Brown]

And anyone tuned into their body can feel it anyway!

[Frost]

Frost, like I mentioend on the thread you posted that info, you need to re-read the study, for one thing the individuals were NOT untrained, they were competitive rowers ( I f I recall correctly).
The rest I addressed in that thread too.
Fact is HIIT is ONE of many protocols that can be used it is not THE protocol.
One of the crucial elemets of the study was also how the subjects continued to "burn calories" even after they finished their routine because of the high level they bodies had been "jacked" up to.

Fact is anyone that has done this and done it correctly sees the changes quite quickly, the problem is it can't be sustained, just like any other HIT protocol, it is good for about 4-6 weeks and then you need to switch it up.

actually there although his original work was with speed skaters, the study people quote was done with PE students (some of them table tennis players)

from the text
MATERIALS AND METHODS
Subjects. Young male students majoring in physical education volunteered for the study (Table 1). Most were physically active and were members of varsity table tennis, baseball, basketball, football (soccer), and swimming teams. After receiving a detailed explanation of the purposes, potential benefits, and risks associated with participating in the study, each student gave his written consent."

Average VO2 max in group one was 52.9 (LSD group) in the second group it was 48.2 (HIIT Group)

There were only 7 people in each group

Hardly pro athletes by any means, they were members of student rec teams and PE students at a university. They were NOT competitive speed skaters or trained athletes. Their average VO2s are low and indicate they were fairly untrained in any high intensity exercise whatsoever. It's also worth noting that the LSD group had a noticeably higher VO2 max to begin with, meaning they probably had better aerobic fitness to begin with and would be less likely to improve as much over the 6 weeks

and i agree anything can work for a few weeks, the questions are how long does its effects last and how far can improvments be made