Muscle lab: Bulk up with the science of bodybuilding

[Frost]

And anyone tuned into their body can feel it anyway!

can feel what? that it hurts, that it sucks, anyone can come up with a workout that hurts but does it actually improve your performance thats the question

[sanjuro_ronin]

I think that what the study does prove, beyond any doubt and that all can agree on is that, once more, SPECIFICITY rules.
The study showed that the anerobic conditioning improved dramitically with HIIT and that there was even improvement in the aeribioc part as well.
You do NOT get that with moderate paced aeriobic activity.

So, for anerobic specific atheltic events ( sprints and such) and time limited events ( boxing for example), HIIT works better AND they get some aerobic conditioning to boot.

[Frost]

I think that what the study does prove, beyond any doubt and that all can agree on is that, once more, SPECIFICITY rules.
The study showed that the anerobic conditioning improved dramitically with HIIT and that there was even improvement in the aeribioc part as well.
You do NOT get that with moderate paced aeriobic activity.

So, for anerobic specific atheltic events ( sprints and such) and time limited events ( boxing for example), HIIT works better AND they get some aerobic conditioning to boot.

actually the VO2 max increased in both groups, the HITT group saw a dramatic increase over the first 3 weeks then as tabata himself says there was virtually no improvement in the final 3 weeks, whilst the steady state group saw a smaller linear improvement that continued through the 6 weeks, also the HITT group started at a lower VO2 max so of course they would have seen better increases.

ANy improvement in the aerobic conditioning of the HITT group is hard to judge since he actually had them doing 1x30minute session a week of aerobic cardio which kind of messes with the final outcome of the study.

As for HITT being better for boxing etc, i tend to see it differently, i see most combat sports as being alactic/aerobic in nature, these events can last up to 30 minutes overall with periods of very short fast activity with periods of longer activity at a lower pace, so training methods that work the alactic system and the aerobic system are what i think works, but opinions are like ar%eholes everyone has one

[Drake]

can feel what? that it hurts, that it sucks, anyone can come up with a workout that hurts but does it actually improve your performance thats the question

That's the biggest mistake people make. They don't understand that this is an actual science, and that there are specific metrics and plans that are taken into consideration. You can't just go and toss about heavy things. You'll improve in some aspects, but it's sort of like taking the long way to a destination. And in many cases, you'll never even reach your goals.

Like with medicine and other topics, this is one area where I defer to the experts.

[Syn7]

what i think is most appealing about the tabata method is that it can be applied to anything at any level for anyone... its simple, its direct and it cant end up being the kind of pseudo workout people get into after they have been doing it awhile, tabata forces you to be your best, always... good days and bad days... you never win, just get stronger thru real hard work... aslong as what you are doing is a good exercise, tabata will give you maximum output potential...

[IronFist]

What is "lsd work?"

Tabata gave his subjects drugs

[Frost]

what i think is most appealing about the tabata method is that it can be applied to anything at any level for anyone... its simple, its direct and it cant end up being the kind of pseudo workout people get into after they have been doing it awhile, tabata forces you to be your best, always... good days and bad days... you never win, just get stronger thru real hard work... aslong as what you are doing is a good exercise, tabata will give you maximum output potential...

no it cant and no it isnt

This is the problem people don’t actually read the study, just the bits magazines and e-articles care to post and they try to make it something it’s not, the original test was done scientifically they had set rpm goals to reach, once their output fell below this established perimeters tabata ended the session, it wasn’t a case of just doing 8 sets of 20seconds as hard as possible, it was a case or reaching scientifically predetermined rates of force production, and if these couldn’t be maintained then ending them session, which is why they used spin bikes so they could accurately measure output, doing what you think is an all out effort for 20secs may feel hard and feel like you are working, but that is not what tabatas study was about and it is not his protocol
and suggesting someone unfit should try this kind of work is just plain silly, intervals have there place but a base must be built first, and that base is built through steady state aerobic work

[Frost]

What is "lsd work?"

Tabata gave his subjects drugs

smartarse, he used steady state moderate work

[Drake]

From my experiences with athletes coming into the Army, the big problem is always cardio. They can do pushups fine, usually good with situps. You take them on a run, and they sound like a dying cow.

From a fighting perspective, cardio is crucial. I can't count how many people I've whittled down in sparring and combatives simply by outlasting them, which normally doesn't take long. The clinch drill is exhausting as well. Good cardio is very important.

[Frost]

That's the biggest mistake people make. They don't understand that this is an actual science, and that there are specific metrics and plans that are taken into consideration. You can't just go and toss about heavy things. You'll improve in some aspects, but it's sort of like taking the long way to a destination. And in many cases, you'll never even reach your goals.

Like with medicine and other topics, this is one area where I defer to the experts.

yep one pro trainer when asked by a client why his workout was so short and didnt hurt said "anyone can write a workout that makes someone puke, it takes hard work and brains to make someone stronger faster and better conditioned"

[Syn7]

where can i read the whole study in english???

[IronFist]

No, in all seriousness, I don't know what lsd refers to in this context

[Frost]

No, in all seriousness, I don't know what lsd refers to in this context

long slow distance training, usually running but also used can to refer to any type of relatively easy stedy state cardio work

[Frost]

where can i read the whole study in english???

i think its only on the premed web site, which yo have to be a member of, ill try and post some of it on here

[Frost]

here is a write up from a pretty well known author and athlete, it includes a lot of the tabata research so if you want to just ignore his comments and read the extracts

Effects of Moderate-Intensity Endurance and High-Intensity Intermittent Training on Anaerobic Capacity and VO2 Max
Title and Abstract

Tabata I. et. al. Effects of moderate-intensity endurance and high-intensity intermittent training on anaerobic capacity and VO2max. Med Sci Sports Exerc. (1996) 28(10):1327-30.

This study consists of two training experiments using a mechanically braked cycle ergometer. First, the effect of 6 wk of moderate-intensity endurance training (intensity: 70% of maximal oxygen uptake (VO2max), 60 min.d-1, 5 d.wk-1) on the anaerobic capacity (the maximal accumulated oxygen deficit) and VO2max was evaluated. After the training, the anaerobic capacity did not increase significantly (P > 0.10), while VO2max increased from 53 +/- 5 ml.kg-1 min-1 to 58 +/- 3 ml.kg-1.min-1 (P < 0.01) (mean +/- SD). Second, to quantify the effect of high-intensity intermittent training on energy release, seven subjects performed an intermittent training exercise 5 d.wk-1 for 6 wk. The exhaustive intermittent training consisted of seven to eight sets of 20-s exercise at an intensity of about 170% of VO2max with a 10-s rest between each bout. After the training period, VO2max increased by 7 ml.kg-1.min-1, while the anaerobic capacity increased by 28%. In conclusion, this study showed that moderate-intensity aerobic training that improves the maximal aerobic power does not change anaerobic capacity and that adequate high-intensity intermittent training may improve both anaerobic and aerobic energy supplying systems significantly, probably through imposing intensive stimuli on both systems.




Background

In recent years, training and the Internets have become interval crazy. Everybody wants to do nothing but interval training all the **** time (with some even proclaiming that any non-interval training is not only useless but downright detrimental).

Now, I’ve written extensively about this in what must be about a 12 part series on Steady State vs. Interval Training here on the site. I’m not going to rehash the entirety of that series, mind you; go read it. But simply, both intervals and steady state have their place in training. Arguments that one is inherently or always superior to the other has more to do with marketing than reality.

But among other aspects of this particular meme, the idea of the Tabata protocol (often abbreviated Tabatas) gets bandied about all the time. And the problem is that people are using the term to describe something that they don’t really understand. What has happened is that a bunch of people who don’t really know what they are talking about have written so much about the protocol that what it actually is or accomplishes has been completely diluted.

So I figured I’d undilute it by actually examining the study that the whole set of claims and supposed ‘protocols’ are based on. Because, as is so often the case, what people think they are doing as ‘Tabatas’ are nothing like what the actual study did. And most people who think they are doing the Tabata protocol are doing absolutely nothing of the sort.

As a bit of history, the protocol was actually originally developed by a Japanese speed skating coach and later studied by researchers; I bring this up because speed skating is actually a very peculiar sport in a lot of ways (something that I have insight into as I’ve spent the last 5 years training full time as a skater). But I’m not going to get that into detail here; I simply mention it for completeness.




The Study

The study set out to compare both the anaerobic and aerobic adaptations (in terms of one parameter only, VO2 max) to two different protocols of training. The study recruited 14 active male students who were, at best moderately trained (VO2 max was roughly 50 ml/kg/min which is average at best; elite endurance athletes have values in the 70-80 range).

All work including the pre- and post tests were done on a mechanically braked bicycle ergometer; this is an important point that is often ignored and I’ll come back to in the discussion. Every test or high-intensity workout was proceeded by a 10 minute warm-up at 50% of VO2 max (This is maybe 60-65% maximum heart rate).

The two primary tests were VO2 max and the maximal accumulated oxygen deficit (this is a test of anaerobic capacity, basically people with higher anaerobic capacity can generate a larger oxygen deficit) and then subjected to one of two training programs.

The first program was a fairly standard aerobic training program, subjects exercised 5 days/week at 70% of VO2 max for 60 minutes at a cadence of 70 RPMs for 6 straight weeks. The intensity of exercise was raised as VO2 max increased with training to maintain the proper percentage. VO2 max was tested weekly in this group and the maximal accumulated oxygen deficit was measured before, at 4 weeks and after training.

The second group performed the Tabata protocol. For four days per week they performed 7-8 sets of 20 seconds at 170% of VO2 max with 10 seconds rest between bouts, again this was done after a 10 minute warm-up. When more than 9 sets could be completed, the wattage was increased by 11 watts. If the subjects could not maintain a cadence of 85RPM, the workout was ended.

On the fifth day of training, they performed 30 minutes of exercise at 70% of VO2 max followed by 4 sets of the intermittent protocol and this session was designed to NOT be exhaustive. The anaerobic capacity test was performed at the beginning, week 2, week 4 and the end of the 6 week period; VO2 max was tested at the beginning and at week 3, 5 and the end of training.




Results

For group 1, the standard aerobic training group, while there was no increase in anaerobic capacity, VO2 max increased significantly from roughly 52 to 57 ml/kg/min (I say roughly because the paper failed to provide vaules, I’m going by what’s in the graphic below). Frankly, given the lack of anaerobic contribution to steady state training, the lack of improvement in this parameter is absolutely no surprise.

For group 2, both the anaerobic capacity and VO2 max showed improvements. VO2 max improved in the interval group from 48 ml/kg/min to roughly 55 ml/kg/min (see graphic below). It is worth noting that the interval group was starting with a lower value and may have had more room for improvement. Also note that they still ended up with a lower Vo2 max than the steady state group.

I’ve put Figure 2 from the paper (showing improvements in VO2 max) below

click this link to see the graph

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/wp-...2009/07/vo2max



As I noted, pay attention to the fact that the Tabata group (black line, filled circles) started lower than the steady state group, they also still ended up lower than the steady state group. As well, note that pattern of improvement, the Tabata group got most of their improvement in the first 3 weeks and far less in the second three weeks. The steady state group showed more gradual improvement across the entire 6 week period but it was more consistent. As the researchers state regarding the Tabata group

.